wvmat.com

I have been reading a number of post on this site and there is some really good conversation and points taken from various subjects. As this wrestling season comes to an end, I can only really go from what I seen at the gym and read on this board. I don't have a child on a high school team yet. But I do have a love for this sport and hopes of seeing it stay vibrant and grow though out our state.
I have multiple concerns for the future of wrestling and it's prevalence in our state. First, WV is looking at another year of a State Budget short fall (sum of $200m) and I fear the tickle-down effect that it will have for our infrastructure for projects and development and schools. There is going to be again this year and years to come, budget cuts throughout the state and as we all know a state that has a lot of pride but dwindling employment and in turn losing it's population.
The Northern Panhandle and Eastern Panhandle as well as Morgantown have seen the only growth in jobs and population but so-so or even weak wrestling within the youth, middle and High School. Sure, there maybe a youth club or two and maybe a MS (team) that can compete, but High School wrestling is falling behind in these areas were there should be growth and show progression.
I've read a lot of discussion on regions not being able to fill it's weigh class obligations to make a competitive and meaningful state tournament with no byes and maybe with a solution in giving a JV wrestlers or bring in a 5th place finisher from another region to fill that void. Or maybe do an open format and let everyone wrestle within the state. All of it makes sense but what is best for the tournament and to the validity for the State of West Virginia Wrestling compared to other states (because it does matter what the perception going forward is outside of WV, it's called pride).
I have respect for all posters (other than flamers that post negative just to be negative) that brings to a conversation about fixing a problem. If you have a child in the game you want what is best for them and their school/ program/ region.
I don't mean to doom and gloom a post and/or seem rhetorical on what is happening. But going forward we must build from within and make each region strong and keep supporting youth, MS and HS to make it better. How do we make this happen? You can't exclude a region because of weak numbers in favor of the stronger area (in numbers) because solely the wrestling is thought to be better. That wouldn't make it a true state championship.

I can say that even though it's youth, every area of WV can represent its self regardless of Classification, numbers in a given weigh class and the child feels like they won a state championship. I believe with the new format WVYWA in youth/ MS wrestling is a proper way to go about making a youth championship that will hopefully trickle down to the HS level and improve not just performance but numbers.
High School coaches must get involved with their youth programs and maybe go into the Elem, MS and talk to kids. Promote from within!! Only one HS coach in our area does that and he is starting to see the reward from doing that. I'm not trying to beat on HS coaches but I believe there are some that need to take a look in the mirror and ask themselves are they doing the right for their given program and it's future. When you only have 8-6 wrestlers come out for a HS season year after year with a school that has over 1300 kids there is something wrong.

Point taken, it doesn't matter until you get to High School and what you do.....and yes the cream will rise to the top!!!

Bravo! Good post.

I agree that WVYWA is doing some good stuff. They need the support of coaches and we high school coaches need to pressure the WVSSAC to support them as well. Regardless of personal opinions about WVYWA, they are the only entity in our state working to promote wrestling at a youth level. If you want middle school and high school wrestling to see bigger numbers, it starts at the youth level.

I also agree that large schools with small wrestling teams are dropping the ball somewhere. When a school like Indy (628 students) can produce a full A team and pretty much a full B team then there is no excuse. I know some coaches take offense at this because they are trying, but when the golf team is bigger than the wrestling team, there is a problem.

With that said, athletic directors need to get involved and ensure that coaches of other sports are not telling their athletes that they can not wrestle. I know this happens, I have seen it myself. Athletic directors need to call a coach meeting and clearly articulate that any coach caught forbidding athletes from playing other sports or trash-talking other sports to keep their athletes from being interested will be suspended or fired and then they need to stick to it.

I can not speak for the entire northern and eastern panhandle, but a lack of youth wrestling is a problem. I lived in Wetzel county last year and it was bad. I was told there used to be a youth program, but it had long ago gone under and there was no support for starting one that I could find. The middle school program was struggling due to lack of funding, lack of support from school administration, and a county administration that refused to even allow volunteer coaches. If that is the way it is in other northern and eastern counties, then that explains a lot.

I really like this post. I also appreciate the recognition of youth wrestling. There are a lot of people in the state working hard to build up programs and wrestling in general. I was fortunate to speak to a parent last night about her sons' youth program in Tyler county. They have a program that has 30 kids in it this year. That is more than they have had in a very long time. I was excited for this. Might I suggest that HS coaches visit some of these youth programs so the kids know who you are. It's easy to get to know or be familiar with the Football, Baseball, and Basketball coaches. They practice in areas that are highly visible. Wrestling practices are typically held in closed rooms not accessible to the public. Getting out and getting know who is coming up into your program is important. Getting kids to stick with it could be even more important. Some kids don't find success when they are young and really get good when in high school. Unfortunately, most don't stick with it long enough to realize their potential.

Sincerely,
Mike Carman
President WVYWA

I'm surely no economist and on the topic of adjusting regions I've got no real solution but regarding the success of wrestling I think the answer is fairly simple. I say this because it works for us and many others. The SSAC needs to relax the rules limiting coaching out of season and use of facilities. There needs to be more discussion out of season, more wrestling and training out of season. Some schools get away with whatever they want while others have a watchful eye on them by a principal, A.D. or spiteful basketball coach (not a joke). I'm not saying what works for us is breaking rules...we are fortunate enough to live on the PA border and attend a great club and compete at nationals all summer. I know there are several great clubs in southern and eastern WV as well but it is the old coach mentality to deter kids from joining them. When everyone can get over themselves and we are all pointing in the same direction then the sport will grow. But for now its the Commission limiting coaches and many coaches deterring kids(from participating in club wrestling). Not everywhere but more so than not.

coach_williams wrote:Bravo! Good post.
Regardless of personal opinions about WVYWA, they are the only entity in our state working to promote wrestling at a youth level.

I take offense to your post. The WVYWA association is not the only entity promoting youth wrestling in this state.

Thanks
Brent Sams

P.H.D. wrote:I'm surely no economist and on the topic of adjusting regions I've got no real solution but regarding the success of wrestling I think the answer is fairly simple. I say this because it works for us and many others. The SSAC needs to relax the rules limiting coaching out of season and use of facilities. There needs to be more discussion out of season, more wrestling and training out of season. Some schools get away with whatever they want while others have a watchful eye on them by a principal, A.D. or spiteful basketball coach (not a joke). I'm not saying what works for us is breaking rules...we are fortunate enough to live on the PA border and attend a great club and compete at nationals all summer. I know there are several great clubs in southern and eastern WV as well but it is the old coach mentality to deter kids from joining them. When everyone can get over themselves and we are all pointing in the same direction then the sport will grow. But for now its the Commission limiting coaches and many coaches deterring kids(from participating in club wrestling). Not everywhere but more so than not.

P.H.D. you just got me on my soap box. I know this is a long post but it lays out how the SSAC works as I have had to deal with certain rules that govern our sport for the past 5 years and have had very little success getting things to change.

I will say that this has to do more with the caliber of wrestlers and not so much the number of wrestlers. I myself have had to deal with the issues pointed out by P.H.D. I found unique ways to work around them but we are fortunate to 1. live where we live and have access to rooms that teach and work our kids out of season. 2. Have the means to get my kids there. 3. Have the support and help of others around me. Not everyone is as fortunate as us. To say the SSAC needs to relax the rules limiting coaching out of season and use of facilities is an understatement. I would go further and point out that the rules governing who they can and can't coach should also be relaxed. A HS coach cannot coach someone in 8th grade. Why? A MS coach cannot coach someone in 5th grade. Why? If we want them to get involved with youth programs to help grow the sport but they are technically not allowed, doesn't that defeat the purpose. The biggest gripe I have is this though. There is a Non-school participation clause in the WVSSAC rules. It states that you cannot participate for a "club" or non-school entity while in season. I understand the intent of this rule and also agree with it to an extent for HS. Wrestling is one of the quote unquote exempt sports from this rule. However, they must have the Principal's permission to compete outside the school and they cannot miss a school event for a conflicting non school event, this does not include practices as practices are not events. I say that only because there are principals out there that get that confused, practices are handled in a different section of the rules. All of which is okay for HS and completely understandable. However, MS sports are looked at as instructional and non-competitive by the WVSSAC. If that is the case, that is fine but they should be governed by a separate set of rules then and not subject to these inane rules that don't work for them. Furthermore, if that is the stance that the WVSSAC is going to take then there should be no conferences and no conference champions. Also there should be no score and everyone should be declared winners. I remember when all of the schools in our area switched from Jr High Schools to Middle Schools. We didn't even know if they were going to keep the athletic programs around. One thing I have noticed is that our elementary kids come through good programs and once they get to middle school, for the most part, the programs fall off and are terrible. Sorry if that offends anyone, that is not my intent, merely stating what I have witnessed. I have seen the better wrestlers in the state opt to not compete for their middle schools because of this and for reasons that deal with the WVSSAC. I think some of the changes the SSAC has made this year are a step in the right direction but they are baby steps. There needs to be some big steps to not only fix things in wrestling but in all sports. We have a tendency in this state to hold back our more exceptional student athletes under the pretense of leveling the playing field. Last time I checked, there was no such thing as a level playing field. Especially in dealing with everyday life.

With all that said, keep in mind that the State Legislature recognizes the WVSSAC as the governing body for all school sports and as such the rules that are put in place are also considered law in WV. This is because the DOE does not want to deal with sports. Also, the rules committee only meets to vote on proposed rule changes once a year and those rule changes need to be prepared and submitted a year in advance. Now, each HS and each MS principal in the state have a vote on rule changes. So to effect change you need to get the Principals on board. No easy task. Coaches actually have very little control over the interscholastic rules by which they need to comply. They meet and discuss things they would like to have changed and bring that before a committee that takes it to the principals and the principals actually are the ones who either make the change or don't. Having had to deal with the SSAC on numerous occasions, I have almost memorized the rules.

Now, can someone who understood all of what I just wrote explain to me how we the citizens of our state have allowed this to go on for as long as we have?

P.H.D. wrote:I'm surely no economist and on the topic of adjusting regions I've got no real solution but regarding the success of wrestling I think the answer is fairly simple. I say this because it works for us and many others. The SSAC needs to relax the rules limiting coaching out of season and use of facilities. There needs to be more discussion out of season, more wrestling and training out of season. Some schools get away with whatever they want while others have a watchful eye on them by a principal, A.D. or spiteful basketball coach (not a joke). I'm not saying what works for us is breaking rules...we are fortunate enough to live on the PA border and attend a great club and compete at nationals all summer. I know there are several great clubs in southern and eastern WV as well but it is the old coach mentality to deter kids from joining them. When everyone can get over themselves and we are all pointing in the same direction then the sport will grow. But for now its the Commission limiting coaches and many coaches deterring kids(from participating in club wrestling). Not everywhere but more so than not.

The struggling teams are the ones most affected by the strict out-of-season rules.

When you are in a program with just one or two knowledgeable individuals, if you can even find someone to work with your kids in the off season, the chances of them having any kind of wrestling experience is next to none. The bigger wrestling areas have alumni upon alumni with lifetimes of experience coming back to help over and over again.

Not that you did, but others are cutting down programs that are small based on school population proportion. But if that area is not known or doesn't have a history of wrestling, why the harsh words? I coach and teach in a county with nearly no wrestling history (high school of 850ish). It's tough to garner any attention when basketball is king. But we're working hard every day to change that. Please don't pick on the little guys.

Rage_Bear wrote:

P.H.D. wrote:I'm surely no economist and on the topic of adjusting regions I've got no real solution but regarding the success of wrestling I think the answer is fairly simple. I say this because it works for us and many others. The SSAC needs to relax the rules limiting coaching out of season and use of facilities. There needs to be more discussion out of season, more wrestling and training out of season. Some schools get away with whatever they want while others have a watchful eye on them by a principal, A.D. or spiteful basketball coach (not a joke). I'm not saying what works for us is breaking rules...we are fortunate enough to live on the PA border and attend a great club and compete at nationals all summer. I know there are several great clubs in southern and eastern WV as well but it is the old coach mentality to deter kids from joining them. When everyone can get over themselves and we are all pointing in the same direction then the sport will grow. But for now its the Commission limiting coaches and many coaches deterring kids(from participating in club wrestling). Not everywhere but more so than not.

The struggling teams are the ones most affected by the strict out-of-season rules.

When you are in a program with just one or two knowledgeable individuals, if you can even find someone to work with your kids in the off season, the chances of them having any kind of wrestling experience is next to none. The bigger wrestling areas have alumni upon alumni with lifetimes of experience coming back to help over and over again.

Not that you did, but others are cutting down programs that are small based on school population proportion. But if that area is not known or doesn't have a history of wrestling, why the harsh words? I coach and teach in a county with nearly no wrestling history (high school of 850ish). It's tough to garner any attention when basketball is king. But we're working hard every day to change that. Please don't pick on the little guys.

Agreed, there are areas in the state that don't have access to the things other parts of the state have to offer. However, I do know that although you may not have them in your area, that does not mean you cannot get access to them with just a short drive out of your area. Yes that would be a hardship for some, but it is an option. I have not met anyone from another area that was not willing to work with a kid that wants to learn. Most of the school alumni that wrestle are more concerned about getting good quality wrestlers and partners than they are about what school they attend. For the most part. For instance, my son attends John Marshall and everyone knew while he was growing up he would attend JM. That did not deter people who went to Wheeling Park or Brooke or even some schools across the river from working with him. And WP and JM and Brooke are big rivals. The wrestling community is a family. Fierce competitors on the mat but off the mat we have the utmost respect for each other. I myself have driven my sons 1 1/2 hours one way during the week just to get them with partners that would push them. Again, that is not feasible for most and agreed not necessarily a sane option, but if you want something bad enough, you make it happen. A lot of what I am talking about wasn't an option for us early in their careers as wrestlers not because we couldn't do it, we just simply had no knowledge of what was out there. We were fortunate that people were willing to help us a great deal along the way and point us in the right direction.

Rage_Bear wrote:
Not that you did, but others are cutting down programs that are small based on school population proportion. But if that area is not known or doesn't have a history of wrestling, why the harsh words? I coach and teach in a county with nearly no wrestling history (high school of 850ish). It's tough to garner any attention when basketball is king. But we're working hard every day to change that. Please don't pick on the little guys.

Title IV is causing this too.

For those who do not know, Title IV is a Federal law that requires that a school have a "boys" sport for every "girls" sport. Football has to be balanced with volleyball, boys and girls basketball balance each other out, boys baseball and girls softball balance each other out, track, cross country and tennis are unisex...this leaves wrestling to be balanced out by cheerleading. The problem arises when a girls volleyball or softball team is eliminated or there is no one to coach the team. Schools are not going to eliminate the football, baseball, or basketball programs, so they look at wrestling. If the wrestling team is struggling and only has 5 or 7 wrestlers then they cut it rather than fight to keep a girls sport. I bet that if you look closely at school who end their wrestling program you will see that many of them nixed their girls volleyball or softball team too.

coach_williams wrote:

Rage_Bear wrote:
Not that you did, but others are cutting down programs that are small based on school population proportion. But if that area is not known or doesn't have a history of wrestling, why the harsh words? I coach and teach in a county with nearly no wrestling history (high school of 850ish). It's tough to garner any attention when basketball is king. But we're working hard every day to change that. Please don't pick on the little guys.

Title IV is causing this too.

For those who do not know, Title IV is a Federal law that requires that a school have a "boys" sport for every "girls" sport. Football has to be balanced with volleyball, boys and girls basketball balance each other out, boys baseball and girls softball balance each other out, track, cross country and tennis are unisex...this leaves wrestling to be balanced out by cheerleading. The problem arises when a girls volleyball or softball team is eliminated or there is no one to coach the team. Schools are not going to eliminate the football, baseball, or basketball programs, so they look at wrestling. If the wrestling team is struggling and only has 5 or 7 wrestlers then they cut it rather than fight to keep a girls sport. I bet that if you look closely at school who end their wrestling program you will see that many of them nixed their girls volleyball or softball team too.

Title IX could be a contributing factor, but likewise they should not cut wrestling and keep the girls sport too. That could also be happening. I'd be curious to know if all schools are completely balanced. Besides, girls wrestle in their schools so wrestling may not need a sport to off set it since girls can be on the wrestling team.

coach_williams wrote:
Title IV is causing this too.

For those who do not know, Title IV is a Federal law that requires that a school have a "boys" sport for every "girls" sport. Football has to be balanced with volleyball, boys and girls basketball balance each other out, boys baseball and girls softball balance each other out, track, cross country and tennis are unisex...this leaves wrestling to be balanced out by cheerleading. The problem arises when a girls volleyball or softball team is eliminated or there is no one to coach the team. Schools are not going to eliminate the football, baseball, or basketball programs, so they look at wrestling. If the wrestling team is struggling and only has 5 or 7 wrestlers then they cut it rather than fight to keep a girls sport. I bet that if you look closely at school who end their wrestling program you will see that many of them nixed their girls volleyball or softball team too.

Title IV? According to google Title IV governs to whom the refund of an overpayment of student financial aid belongs.

Rocky IV was a great flick. Rocky IX probably reunites Rocky, Adrian, Apollo, & Micky in heaven.

mike.carman wrote:
One thing I have noticed is that our elementary kids come through good programs and once they get to middle school, for the most part, the programs fall off and are terrible. Sorry if that offends anyone, that is not my intent, merely stating what I have witnessed. I have seen the better wrestlers in the state opt to not compete for their middle schools because of this and for reasons that deal with the WVSSAC. I think some of the changes the SSAC has made this year are a step in the right direction but they are baby steps. There needs to be some big steps to not only fix things in wrestling but in all sports. We have a tendency in this state to hold back our more exceptional student athletes under the pretense of leveling the playing field. Last time I checked, there was no such thing as a level playing field. Especially in dealing with everyday life.

With all that said, keep in mind that the State Legislature recognizes the WVSSAC as the governing body for all school sports and as such the rules that are put in place are also considered law in WV. This is because the DOE does not want to deal with sports. Also, the rules committee only meets to vote on proposed rule changes once a year and those rule changes need to be prepared and submitted a year in advance. Now, each HS and each MS principal in the state have a vote on rule changes. So to effect change you need to get the Principals on board. No easy task. Coaches actually have very little control over the interscholastic rules by which they need to comply. They meet and discuss things they would like to have changed and bring that before a committee that takes it to the principals and the principals actually are the ones who either make the change or don't. Having had to deal with the SSAC on numerous occasions, I have almost memorized the rules.

Now, can someone who understood all of what I just wrote explain to me how we the citizens of our state have allowed this to go on for as long as we have?

Same frustration here! I'm still trying to understand the rules and the governing body of the WVSSAC and it's tangled web from what little bit I know and understand about it. The saying it takes a village to raise a family. It's the same in building a sports program and having the same ideals and network to transform it into a long last entity. The coaches, principals school administration and community must support any program in order for it to thrive.
My son is lucky and is part of a good youth program. I don't know what he'll have in HS (program, coaching, administration backing) and it's very concerning. We have been fortunate enough to travel and do some really big tournament and duals in Va, Pa. DE, and NJ. We have see first hand what states are strong by the number of teams and individuals that represent their area. And it's fun for them to understand that we aren't Western Va but West Virginia.
My reason for this post is some what selfish for I see a sport that I love and that I introduced to my son to and I fear what may becoming (or not coming) when he enters HS. I appreciate the forwarding thinking that many here seem to have. Unfortunately, I do not have a solution for Mike Carmans last sentence. But I do know it takes a village!!!

ZZChooseTop wrote:

coach_williams wrote:
Title IV is causing this too.

For those who do not know, Title IV is a Federal law that requires that a school have a "boys" sport for every "girls" sport. Football has to be balanced with volleyball, boys and girls basketball balance each other out, boys baseball and girls softball balance each other out, track, cross country and tennis are unisex...this leaves wrestling to be balanced out by cheerleading. The problem arises when a girls volleyball or softball team is eliminated or there is no one to coach the team. Schools are not going to eliminate the football, baseball, or basketball programs, so they look at wrestling. If the wrestling team is struggling and only has 5 or 7 wrestlers then they cut it rather than fight to keep a girls sport. I bet that if you look closely at school who end their wrestling program you will see that many of them nixed their girls volleyball or softball team too.

Title IV? According to google Title IV governs to whom the refund of an overpayment of student financial aid belongs.

Rocky IV was a great flick. Rocky IX probably reunites Rocky, Adrian, Apollo, & Micky in heaven.

That's funny. He meant Title IX but his point was made.

I did not see it on the front page anywhere but perhaps a club section could be added to help those whom might not be aware of a club or organized practice room near them. I live in the northern panhandle, I can see PA and OH out of the back window of my house. Sure that doesn't help a lot of people on here but I drive 40 minutes to Imperial, Pa. 2-5 days a week depending on what time of year it is. I'll take any kid that can meet us and wants to go.
We train at:
Gladiators Wrestling Club
7905 Steubenville Pike
North Fayette, Pa.15126

Practice times are currently:
Sun, Tues, Thurs 6:30-8:00
There are novice practice times too but I'm not 100% on the weekly schedule.

It would be a good idea to compile a list of statewide clubs.

Anyone interested can pm me for the phone number.

It is there on the front page.
Also near the top of the Youth Tournament page

http://www.wvmat.com/youth/youthtea.htm

I'm sure some of the info may be out of date.

I post what I get

mike.carman wrote:

ZZChooseTop wrote:

coach_williams wrote:
Title IV is causing this too.

For those who do not know, Title IV is a Federal law that requires that a school have a "boys" sport for every "girls" sport. Football has to be balanced with volleyball, boys and girls basketball balance each other out, boys baseball and girls softball balance each other out, track, cross country and tennis are unisex...this leaves wrestling to be balanced out by cheerleading. The problem arises when a girls volleyball or softball team is eliminated or there is no one to coach the team. Schools are not going to eliminate the football, baseball, or basketball programs, so they look at wrestling. If the wrestling team is struggling and only has 5 or 7 wrestlers then they cut it rather than fight to keep a girls sport. I bet that if you look closely at school who end their wrestling program you will see that many of them nixed their girls volleyball or softball team too.

Title IV? According to google Title IV governs to whom the refund of an overpayment of student financial aid belongs.

Rocky IV was a great flick. Rocky IX probably reunites Rocky, Adrian, Apollo, & Micky in heaven.

That's funny. He meant Title IX but his point was made.

Yeah my Roman math skills need a little work

Wrestling is a unisex sport. Just because there are no female students who WISH to compete in wrestling, in a given district, does not matter. The opportunity is there.

The folks who know understood your post Coach W.

Careful Doc, the WVSSAC might fine you and your website for providing such avenues to make kids better. They will accuse you of recruiting.
WVSSAC, such a toothless organization.



If you are a young parent(without knowledge of wrestling) looking for wrestling in WV you can simply google and WVMAT will appear, thank goodness. Imagine WV Wrestling without WVMAT......shudder..

greencrush wrote:Wrestling is a unisex sport. Just because there are no female students who WISH to compete in wrestling, in a given district, does not matter. The opportunity is there.

Agreed. Unfortunately the WVSSAC doesn't see it that way. In my post about girl's wrestling I mentioned that by specifically recognizing a female champion with a girls bracket at states we could satisfy Title IX requirements. If wrestling was recognized as a unisex sport it would go a long way towards protecting the sport.

mike.carman wrote:

P.H.D. wrote:I'm surely no economist and on the topic of adjusting regions I've got no real solution but regarding the success of wrestling I think the answer is fairly simple. I say this because it works for us and many others. The SSAC needs to relax the rules limiting coaching out of season and use of facilities. There needs to be more discussion out of season, more wrestling and training out of season. Some schools get away with whatever they want while others have a watchful eye on them by a principal, A.D. or spiteful basketball coach (not a joke). I'm not saying what works for us is breaking rules...we are fortunate enough to live on the PA border and attend a great club and compete at nationals all summer. I know there are several great clubs in southern and eastern WV as well but it is the old coach mentality to deter kids from joining them. When everyone can get over themselves and we are all pointing in the same direction then the sport will grow. But for now its the Commission limiting coaches and many coaches deterring kids(from participating in club wrestling). Not everywhere but more so than not.

P.H.D. you just got me on my soap box. I know this is a long post but it lays out how the SSAC works as I have had to deal with certain rules that govern our sport for the past 5 years and have had very little success getting things to change.

I will say that this has to do more with the caliber of wrestlers and not so much the number of wrestlers. I myself have had to deal with the issues pointed out by P.H.D. I found unique ways to work around them but we are fortunate to 1. live where we live and have access to rooms that teach and work our kids out of season. 2. Have the means to get my kids there. 3. Have the support and help of others around me. Not everyone is as fortunate as us. To say the SSAC needs to relax the rules limiting coaching out of season and use of facilities is an understatement. I would go further and point out that the rules governing who they can and can't coach should also be relaxed. A HS coach cannot coach someone in 8th grade. Why? A MS coach cannot coach someone in 5th grade. Why? If we want them to get involved with youth programs to help grow the sport but they are technically not allowed, doesn't that defeat the purpose. The biggest gripe I have is this though. There is a Non-school participation clause in the WVSSAC rules. It states that you cannot participate for a "club" or non-school entity while in season. I understand the intent of this rule and also agree with it to an extent for HS. Wrestling is one of the quote unquote exempt sports from this rule. However, they must have the Principal's permission to compete outside the school and they cannot miss a school event for a conflicting non school event, this does not include practices as practices are not events. I say that only because there are principals out there that get that confused, practices are handled in a different section of the rules. All of which is okay for HS and completely understandable. However, MS sports are looked at as instructional and non-competitive by the WVSSAC. If that is the case, that is fine but they should be governed by a separate set of rules then and not subject to these inane rules that don't work for them. Furthermore, if that is the stance that the WVSSAC is going to take then there should be no conferences and no conference champions. Also there should be no score and everyone should be declared winners. I remember when all of the schools in our area switched from Jr High Schools to Middle Schools. We didn't even know if they were going to keep the athletic programs around. One thing I have noticed is that our elementary kids come through good programs and once they get to middle school, for the most part, the programs fall off and are terrible. Sorry if that offends anyone, that is not my intent, merely stating what I have witnessed. I have seen the better wrestlers in the state opt to not compete for their middle schools because of this and for reasons that deal with the WVSSAC. I think some of the changes the SSAC has made this year are a step in the right direction but they are baby steps. There needs to be some big steps to not only fix things in wrestling but in all sports. We have a tendency in this state to hold back our more exceptional student athletes under the pretense of leveling the playing field. Last time I checked, there was no such thing as a level playing field. Especially in dealing with everyday life.

With all that said, keep in mind that the State Legislature recognizes the WVSSAC as the governing body for all school sports and as such the rules that are put in place are also considered law in WV. This is because the DOE does not want to deal with sports. Also, the rules committee only meets to vote on proposed rule changes once a year and those rule changes need to be prepared and submitted a year in advance. Now, each HS and each MS principal in the state have a vote on rule changes. So to effect change you need to get the Principals on board. No easy task. Coaches actually have very little control over the interscholastic rules by which they need to comply. They meet and discuss things they would like to have changed and bring that before a committee that takes it to the principals and the principals actually are the ones who either make the change or don't. Having had to deal with the SSAC on numerous occasions, I have almost memorized the rules.

Now, can someone who understood all of what I just wrote explain to me how we the citizens of our state have allowed this to go on for as long as we have?

I will tell you how the citizens have allowed this to go on. There are many people who are obsessed with the past. They want to remind everybody that "this has been going on for years, why change it now". That has been the majority mindset in WV.

coach_williams wrote:

Rage_Bear wrote:
Not that you did, but others are cutting down programs that are small based on school population proportion. But if that area is not known or doesn't have a history of wrestling, why the harsh words? I coach and teach in a county with nearly no wrestling history (high school of 850ish). It's tough to garner any attention when basketball is king. But we're working hard every day to change that. Please don't pick on the little guys.

Title IV is causing this too.

For those who do not know, Title IV is a Federal law that requires that a school have a "boys" sport for every "girls" sport. Football has to be balanced with volleyball, boys and girls basketball balance each other out, boys baseball and girls softball balance each other out, track, cross country and tennis are unisex...this leaves wrestling to be balanced out by cheerleading. The problem arises when a girls volleyball or softball team is eliminated or there is no one to coach the team. Schools are not going to eliminate the football, baseball, or basketball programs, so they look at wrestling. If the wrestling team is struggling and only has 5 or 7 wrestlers then they cut it rather than fight to keep a girls sport. I bet that if you look closely at school who end their wrestling program you will see that many of them nixed their girls volleyball or softball team too.

Wrestling is unisex. We have girls on the mat and the boys can now wear hairnets (no haircuts required).

i've never seen so many short stories in my life.

brentsams wrote:

coach_williams wrote:Bravo! Good post.
Regardless of personal opinions about WVYWA, they are the only entity in our state working to promote wrestling at a youth level.

I take offense to your post. The WVYWA association is not the only entity promoting youth wrestling in this state.

Thanks
Brent Sams

It did not go unnoticed by all, just seems they'd rather argue other points of the post. Let it roll off of you, brother. It will all work out as it's supposed to in the end.

brentsams wrote:

coach_williams wrote:Bravo! Good post.
Regardless of personal opinions about WVYWA, they are the only entity in our state working to promote wrestling at a youth level.

I take offense to your post. The WVYWA association is not the only entity promoting youth wrestling in this state.

Thanks
Brent Sams

No reason for you to take offense. Nothing was directed at you in any way shape or form. If there are other entities promoting youth wrestling across the entire state then, by all means, fill me in.

Seems to be a lot of great minds involved on this post so if you guys wouldn't mind giving me some direction I would appreciate it.
I'm interested in starting a small travel team about ages 7-14. Basically getting them ready for HS wrestling. My experience is limited to HS wrestling, some coaching experience, and so far it's just me till I can work out the details and get xSn some better experienced coaches on board.
I have a passion for the sport and ever since my son quit I've been kind of lost! So I started attending more matches recently supporting his old teammates and kids I watched growing up in the sport. I also have a joy to teach kids.
The way I see it my HS coach (Frank Aylor) passed a free gift on to me and I have passed it on to my son and want to share it with others!
Any suggestions would b greatly appreciated!

Coach Williams, I'm sure you have traveled to WoodCounty, right... To say that only the wv/:;)(-$ is the only group promoting youth wrestlin is very offensive. Every year of my adult life, a wood county school has won or was runner up at the state Wrestlin tournament! So obviously there is someone promoting youth Wrestlin or our high schools would not be filled with stud wrestlers each and every year... What ever region South or PHS is in is the toughest by far, year in and year out....
So I say again, you offended my by saying this alphabet soup organization you must be affiliated with is the only one...
To me that organization was created to compete with Wood County's youth programs... Jr. patriots, Cougars, wood county recreation.... I don't have a bone in this fight anymore, but not recognizing the youth programs that have put our state on the map is an insult! Where has the state's youth tournament been held for the past 40+ years? Hint it's not alphabet soups, they started one to compete with wood county's program! I'm not politically correct

Brent Sams - pretty sure Coach Williams was not making a cut to you, he was saying a state wide organization.

Rodney - you actually hurt Brent's point. As you post Wood County, 40 years in Wood County, Wood County Rec League, you kind of supported Coach Williams point. The Wood County Rec League supported Wood County, not the state, they made a ton of money off of the state. In the same 40 years that you mention, others have asked about rotating the youth state tournament to assist the state and not one county league. Wood County Rec League did not support those requests

The WVYWA is a state wide entity. Wood County Rec League is a county league. Too totally different goals. Wood County sponsored a state tournament to fully fund their league members and high schools. WVYWA put the money back into the tournament and distributed money to each region (state, not county).

Brent - nobody will argue that Wood County takes care of their own, and even hosted a great tournament for years, but you also can't argue that besides providing tournaments for competition, the Wood County League did not concern itself much with the state youth funding, programs, building, etc. Not a cut on you, but what your league was designed to do and you guys have done well with it.

Going back a little over a year, it was all Wood County Rec League people that bashed the WVYWA for standing up. This comes down to the mighty dollar. The principles behind what the organization is doing are all with the right intentions. Instead of supporting and assisting, it was Wood County folks who said it will fail, it will never work, nobody can run a tournament like us, they are breaking traditition, the way it has always been.

They were looking for change and growth for all. The same change of people wanting to change regions, allow JV's in, 5th placers filling byes at the state tournament.

Bottom line is Wood County could fully invest time and history into helping the WVYWA grow stronger and prove they are wanting to support WV Youth Wrestling State Wide and become a strong regional lead for the organization, or continue to push back and it will continue to minimize the efforts of both.

Just an outside opinion, not knocking, the Wood County League was designed for Wood County and they do a lot to support themselves. The WVYWA was designed to bring the entire state up and that is what they are trying to do. There will be some rule changes and knee jerk reactions until they get it right for now, and then have to change with time.

I believe that looking at it from that aspect, Coach Williams comment was pretty spot on that the WVYWA is the only organization looking to improve youth wrestling across the state. Not the only organization supporting youth wrestling.

coach_williams wrote:

brentsams wrote:

coach_williams wrote:Bravo! Good post.
Regardless of personal opinions about WVYWA, they are the only entity in our state working to promote wrestling at a youth level.

I take offense to your post. The WVYWA association is not the only entity promoting youth wrestling in this state.

Thanks
Brent Sams

No reason for you to take offense. Nothing was directed at you in any way shape or form. If there are other entities promoting youth wrestling across the entire state then, by all means, fill me in.

Fill you in? ... ummh, let's start with an entity called WVMAT.com. I believe there is a young man in Preston County sponsoring a web site that promotes youth wrestling across the state. And now you are also twisting your words from your original post from "WVYWA, they are the only entity in our state working to promote wrestling at a youth level." to "promoting youth wrestling across the entire state.". It's kind of demeaning to anyone and everyone that ever posted something to this website, to help promote wrestling across the entire state. Of course, there is no one in Milton that ever puts their 2 cents in. And then there is a Gator in WV that shows up anywhere and everywhere, from Brooke County to Independence, to promote and encourage wrestling across the state. Your statement is arrogant and bashes anybody, everybody, or organization that ever sponsored a tournament or hosted an event or been involved. Yosemite Sam? Referees? Coaches? Mat maids? Managers? Parents? Your statement comes across as insulting to anyone not associated with the WVYWA. I could fill you in more, but it's after three in the morning, I just posted full results from the 40 Annual Jr State Wrestling Championship, but to some people, that does not fall under the umbrella of promoting youth wrestling across the entire state.
I will let you in on a little secret, You are not the only one. To the small local event, the area events, national qualifiers, and all those giving their time to make it happen. They are all promoting youth wrestling across the state. It's not just you and the WVYWA that is making wrestling happen in West Virginia. Thanks to all those that contribute to the youth wrestling across this state, even the WVYWA. Every little bit helps.

Thanks to all who work tirelessly to make WV Wrestling what it was, is, and will be.

Get some sleep Brent, you deserve it!

brentsams wrote:

coach_williams wrote:

brentsams wrote:
I take offense to your post. The WVYWA association is not the only entity promoting youth wrestling in this state.

Thanks
Brent Sams

No reason for you to take offense. Nothing was directed at you in any way shape or form. If there are other entities promoting youth wrestling across the entire state then, by all means, fill me in.

Fill you in? ... ummh, let's start with an entity called WVMAT.com. I believe there is a young man in Preston County sponsoring a web site that promotes youth wrestling across the state. And now you are also twisting your words from your original post from "WVYWA, they are the only entity in our state working to promote wrestling at a youth level." to "promoting youth wrestling across the entire state.". It's kind of demeaning to anyone and everyone that ever posted something to this website, to help promote wrestling across the entire state. Of course, there is no one in Milton that ever puts their 2 cents in. And then there is a Gator in WV that shows up anywhere and everywhere, from Brooke County to Independence, to promote and encourage wrestling across the state. Your statement is arrogant and bashes anybody, everybody, or organization that ever sponsored a tournament or hosted an event or been involved. Yosemite Sam? Referees? Coaches? Mat maids? Managers? Parents? Your statement comes across as insulting to anyone not associated with the WVYWA. I could fill you in more, but it's after three in the morning, I just posted full results from the 40 Annual Jr State Wrestling Championship, but to some people, that does not fall under the umbrella of promoting youth wrestling across the entire state.
I will let you in on a little secret, You are not the only one. To the small local event, the area events, national qualifiers, and all those giving their time to make it happen. They are all promoting youth wrestling across the state. It's not just you and the WVYWA that is making wrestling happen in West Virginia. Thanks to all those that contribute to the youth wrestling across this state, even the WVYWA. Every little bit helps.

Relax! For so long wood county has been about wood county. Let's. It have this argument again. I know you have done a lot this weekend, but does any of that money go anywhere except wood county? You do a lot for SOME part of WV and it shows at the high school level, but as a whole state you guys are lacking, and that's ok. Keep doing what you are doing while WVYWA does their thing no need to start bashing or crazy it's a forum not the end of the world. Wvywa is for state wide and wood county jr states is for wood county both for wv in the end just one is on a larger scale helping everyone with a little money. Instead of all going to one place. Congrats on the weekend.