Please read .....

[Panther_coach]

Please read and post accordingly. This is not Facebook or Twitter - Doc set up this forum for us to use and established the rules, we all need to appreciate having this site. I have not been in here as much since I retired but it seems like a refresher may be a good idea. Just so we do not spend this beautiful day in rancor and controversy ...

Rules Of The Forum

No unsportsmanlike conduct.
Unsportsmanlike conduct includes but is not limited to swearing, taunting, intimidation, baiting, indicating displeasure with an official's call, questioning an official's judgement, and acts of disrespect or those actions which incite negative reaction by others. These are the rules which are enforced in a wrestling match, and the same definitions apply here. Those guilty of unsportsmanlike conduct may have their posts removed and posting privileges suspended.
No soliciting or advertising, other than announcements for camps and clinics.
Other items deemed objectionable or unrelated to West Virginia Wrestling may be removed at the editor's discretion. We reserve the right to remove posts to which other readers object. We are just trying to keep everybody happy!!

WV-Mat reserves the right to reject usernames in the event that a chosen username results in an unwanted association with another person or organization.

[Dan Tucker]

Can someone please clarify for me how it is unsportsmanlike or disrespectful to disagree with an officials call? I can understand if I was to post foul language or something personal about an official but to indicate that I do not agree with another person does not indicate unsportsmanlike behavior just because one of us may have a black and white striped shirt and I whistle. I also understand that this is not my website and not my rules. It seems this is the way of the world in his day and age. If a person can't handle a little criticism, they must be censored. Or in this case, snipped, edited, and most likely deleted.

[Panther_coach]

I do see your point but since I choose to use it then those are the rules. We get it free, without annoying pop ups and ads, invitations to play senseless games, political diatribes and cute puppy pictures, so I feel we should follow Doc's guidelines. I see your point but in 30 years of coaching, I never saw an instance where a call was changed the following day because of what was said on a message board, so rehashing things achieves nothing. I was the victim of a few very questionable calls with my teams over the years so I know where folks are coming from but it would perhaps be more prudent to vent somewhere else other than the forum.

[jsams]

As long as its not malicious I'm not sure why referees are untouchable and can't be discussed. With 2 of them on the mat they should be confident in each other to get almost everything right. The majority are very good but a few need to drop the egos and if they screw up a forum is exactly where it should be discussed in a civil manner.

[mooreboysdad]

My post was deleted. I named no one except our Wrestler. I used no foul language. My point is that the ref did not allow match to be decided by the wrestlers. 2 great wrestlers in a great match. If you do your research on this match, ask the attending ref, watch the video, read the rule book you will understand my point. Incompetency at this level of competition is unacceptable. And to just say life isn't always fair doesn't fly in this case. There was a call corrected in AA 126 when attending ref was consulted. Same thing should have happened in AA 113

[J.W.]

Mooreboysdad, what you are doing is trying to downplay a kids state title by saying he did not score because you did not like the call. Read it from the other wrestlers eyes.

So, with that being said congratulations to Cam on a great career.

[Dan Tucker]

You're right Panther Coach. A wresting forum is no place to discuss what happens at wrestling tournaments. From now on we should post unicorns, puffy clouds, cartwheels, and bubbles. That's how ridiculous your explanation to my request for clarification was. And your diatribes may not be political but they are the longest of diatribes nonetheless.

[Matofficial]

My posts were also deleted and please don't pull the I have been a coach and had a few bad calls. I have been a coach and referee for 44 years. I have officiated the state tourney and changed calls when I was wrong. At no time as an official did I ever make up my own rules and incompetently tell others that " when I am officiating it is ". I generally don't go to the table unless there is an issue. Maybe an apology from the official would be a start. At no time is that kind of performance acceptable ! When comments and excuses like you are making in an effort to appease an ego, is why these things happen. By the way after having venting to too many to list not one person or official disagreed with me especially after looking at the video. As I posted on my other posts in no way am I trying to take anything away from the wrestler who was awarded the win. He seemed like a worthy champion and a nice kid.

[mscoach26]

I don't see where Pantherscoach disputed what you said at all. It just looks like he is trying to follow the rules Dr. Miller put on the website and tried to be a peacemaker. Just my .02

[aacoach70]

Mr. Moore doesn't need me to defend him, but in no way did he suggest one kid or the other should have won, or that the wrong kid won. If the match had been scored correctly, it wouldn't have ended the match and it may not have changed the outcome, as there was plenty of wrestling to be done after that. Young Wharton is a good kid and deserving. I congratulated him sincerely. Twice, as a matter of fact. The call was incorrect, the official was confused, maybe lost track of who was actually on top in that situation,.. It was not a judgement kind of thing. There are rules in a rule book, with pictures and everything. If both wrestlers had been neutral at that time, and Spencer was in that position, he would have scored a takedown there, so control could not have changed. Unsportsmanlike conduct does not apply since coaches can question a misapplication of a rule. An official ought to be able to correct a call without thinking someone is out to discredit him. I don't complain about officiating and I don't have a reputation of going to the table over the least little thing. When I do, I'm usually right. Now, maybe this post will get deleted, but I talked to the official respectfully at matside, and I kept the tone of this post calm as well. Nothing will be changed now. The point some are making, and I hope others could concede to, is that points were awarded that shouldn't have, but in no way shape or form is anyone saying a young man is not deserving. Wharton earned the title by how he wrestled throughout the season and he did what was needed to win his second title within the scope of how it played out. If a reversal had not been awarded, he may have turned Spencer or taken him down in the 3rd. By how good Wharton is on his feet, there's a good chance that might have happened, but it didn't. It happened the way it did, and that's that. Spencer didn't wrestle the same as their first meeting. He didn't fall into the style that Wharton wanted this time. He had a great tournament and is a 3-time place winner himself. He wrestled a good match. Two very good boys. Some people are going to point out that mystery reversal, and it's hard to do that without sounding like you're downplaying a kid's accomplishments. I would never do that and I know Mr. Moore wouldn't either. We know first-hand what it takes to be a champion.

[jsams]

Being rude and malicious is one thing but I do not understand why referees and umpires who are doing a job they signed up for and being compensated are untouchable. Many of them have huge egos and if anything is said they glare or threaten ejection. One at region 1 was looking in the stands several times and missed a few crucial calls. All people want is accountability and with 2 officials that should be possible without egos

[Bearhugger]

There seems to be two matches(113 AA/A and 285 AAA) where controversial calls may have decided the match. I obviously was watching the opposite final match and cannot comment on either one.

I didn't witness any ref lacking knowledge of the sport. I also didn't see all the matches.

However, the one thing I noticed repeatedly throughout the tournament was officials not staying or getting into position fast enough to make the calls. Especially when it came to counting back points or diving down onto the mat to look for pins.

One way to view the sport of wrestling is it is getting up and going down sometimes 100 times in a match. Some wrestlers lose because they can't or don't want to get up that 100th time. In order to follow the action, the refs need to be able to get up and down a lot too.

[Slideby]

Mat official Its funny how last year there were complaints on the exact same thing your complaining about this year but your comments were on the refs side last year . It's time something is done about not poor calls but deliberate calls in favor of wrestlers they know . This is not speculation video doesn't lie when the official is in perfect position and at times multiple seconds to make the call and does nothing but watch is ridiculous. When video distinctly shows a call is so absurd beyond belief the official should be called out on it .Flo dose it but when you post a picture on here it's taken down immediately . We can do better for our athletes

[Dan Tucker]

Slideby, what was the issue last year? Are you saying that matofficial thought it was ok for referees to make up rules? And then when said referees are confronted and their response is "well it's a rule when I'm calling it" that anyone should think that is right? Because that sounds ludicrous but nonetheless is exactly what was said by "official A"

[mooreboysdad]

Thanks aacoach70. I did not attempt to downplay Mr Whartons win. I said in earlier post "2 great wrestlers in a great match". In that particular incident the wrong call was made, and there was no attempt made to correct it. I'm not saying the wrong kid won or that the outcome would have been different, but every attempt should be made to get it right. I thought that was the reason for second referee. I absolutely guarantee if the roles were reversed the other side would be making the same argument.

[Matofficial]

Slideby, I am not sure what you are talking about. I generally do side with the officials as they are usually in the best position to make the call. I also am straight with parents when others seem to think the official may not have made the best call including coaches I work with. I don't mind you posting your comments if they are accurate along with your name as I do not hide behind an alias.

[Matofficial]

Bearhugger, It would be difficult to see an official not be knowledgeable on the rules. What happens is they misinterpret the intent of the rule. For example when a particular official told me he counted to five and no attempt was made to return the wrestler to the mat. As a coach we have no comeback other than there is no such rule in the rule book. That is a fact than can easily be looked up in the book. The problem is when the official says " it is when I am reffing " When an official begins to make his own rules that is when he needs to quit or held accountable. In this very same tourney I went to the table to ask the official to give me a clarification on his interpretation of the five second rule. Our wrestler was on his feet and his opponent did not take him back to the mat after 32 seconds had ran off the clock. He said to me " are you going to try to tell me he was not trying to take him back to the mat ? " my response was " absolutely not but most here are not calling it like that " The point is he was 100% correct and I agreed and thanked him. If the official in question would have been as knowledgeable on the rules and not attempting to make up his own we would not be having this conversation. I have been in the corner coaching and had co-coaches begin telling the ref its been more than five seconds and I most always remind them that is not a rule and they know it but feel it will bring a stall warning and more times than not they do. Maybe this will help a little with Mr Moore, unfortunately many think that the extra official on the mat is to help make a call, however that is not the case. The extra official cannot make any calls. There purpose in this tourney was only to help count down the clock.

[aaacoach11]

The official in the AAA 285 match has consistently called Double stalling on heavyweights from the neutral position all season long. He is also know as a guy who calls quick stallings on mat return situations. Officials need more training on this situation a they all call it differently.

[Truesouthfaninhunt]

Ok I'm just an average fan with limited knowledge of the rule book.
However, I do know a few officials and took the liberty of contacting them regarding this " 5 second return to mat rule".. Unless I am interpreting the crux of this incorrectly ....
My sources say there is NO SUCH RULE that exists!!
If that's the case then what the heck is going on!
Where is our " rules interpreter" regarding this issue?? Why do we continually have the same issues every year at this State Tournament: officiating, seating, obstructed mat view... Etc.

[wv16refgk]

As a long time state tournament official I have seen wrestlers make mistakes in matches, coaches make mistakes in matches and officials make mistakes in matches myself included. Stalling will never be called the same by two officials because it is SUBJECTIVE!!!! Control on line calls is SUBJECTIVE and although the calls may be similar they could have differences in opinions when control was established!!!! THAT IS WHAT MAKES OUR GREAT SPORT what it is !! I have heard wrestlers say I wish I would have taken more shots or wish I would have finished that takedown on the line and many other things that would have changed the outcome to victory instead of defeat. I have heard coaches say I shouldn't have put him down , or neutral or on top or many other decisions in a match that was tight!! No official wants to make a bad call or a poor decision or be out of position but that happens because we are human and a lot of the calls are subjective!!!! If the average fan would realize how many calls we make in a tournament that determine control, out of bounds, stalling, nearfall counts, etc etc and truly get 99.9% right they would be amazed because what most remember is the one call that we made a poor decision on or the pin that was there for a second (not two) or the takedown on the line that happened in a split second with no opportunity to look at it again then I think that they would not be so critical of the referee. Ultimately there were lots of mistakes made in matches that were not the fault of the referees but in judgements made by wrestlers and coaches and that human element, and subjectivity is the reason our sport is so great!!!!

[gnat]

I will agree with you on some of the things you said. Wrestlers make mistakes coaches make mistakes and there isn't anything they can do about it. When a ref makes a mistake in most cases they could correct it but choose not to because they don't want to admit they were wrong. Some matches are easy to call some are difficult. It seems like most refs getting their self in trouble trying to make the call to soon instead of letting the scramble finish. With all the funk rolls these days sometimes it's hard to tell who is in control so if you make a mistake as a ref then do the right thing and correct it.

[mscoach26]

To quote one of the most consistent referees I ever dealt with. "Call the fall, call the stall, call it all!"

[wv16refgk]

Gnat: I've corrected many calls in my day and wiped off takedowns etc but in reality sometimes until we look at it on film we truly believe we made the right call!! I've looked at some and thought to myself I missed that one but, most of the time the video confirms calls rather than the other way. When I miss a call and realize it at the time I correct it but you can't take back a pin for example as the fall terminates a match. Confidence as an official is not arrogance it is ability to sell tough calls, the expertise to make the calls with years of experience, the knowledge to be in the best position and the years of training that make a good official!! Going to clinics to pick up new technique, staying good shape to be able to move, taking the tests and reading the rule books and case manual each year, giving the wrestlers the best officiating you can and lastly but not least giving the coaches the respect they deserve when they come to the table to questions a close call or remembering they spend countless hours coaching, traveling, listening, training , doing paperwork etc etc to make their particular wrestler a contender!!!! I always called the stall, called the fall called it all!!! GK

[Dan Tucker]

I'm sure you are correct that most of the calls the fans think are wrong are probably right the calls. But when a referee says that something is a rule And it's not in the rule book and his next response is "it is when I'm calling it" that's just plain wrong! This is not an attack on all referees and there is no need for any referee to feel the need to defend their officiating. Unless of course, they think it's ok to make up rules rather than correct their mistake. That's what started this controversy and that's all it's about. No one is claiming the match would have definitely ended any differently. Because this official decided to make up his own rule, we will never know if the match would have ended differently. The match is over and life has still gone on. And that official is still wrong and there's nothing left to do but admit it.

[Reichard]

That is the best thread yet Mr Tucker.

[guard0544]

In the end, whether the "five second rule" is literally in the rule book doesnt really matter does it? Obviously it is subjective if someone is stalling. Its up to the official to decide. If a particular ref has decided to utilize a 'five second rule" on returning a wrestler to the mat...that is just a part of his subjectivity,...isnt it? At least he is making it known its one of the measures he is going by when it comes to stalling...so one can coach their wrestler accordingly. Just my two cents.

[Truesouthfaninhunt]

Sorry but that's just absurd

[MalcomFlex]

In the end, whether the "five second rule" is literally in the rule book doesnt really matter does it? Obviously it is subjective if someone is stalling. Its up to the official to decide. If a particular ref has decided to utilize a 'five second rule" on returning a wrestler to the mat...that is just a part of his subjectivity,...isnt it? At least he is making it known its one of the measures he is going by when it comes to stalling...so one can coach their wrestler accordingly. Just my two cents.

Yeah, except if you have never had the referee before, how are coaches and wrestlers supposed to be aware of this so called "rule?" Is this referee so "great" that they can just make up whatever rules that they want? Imagine if a NFL, MLB, NBA, NCAA, etc. just made up individual rules. They would be fined, suspended, etc. Being an official does not mean that you should be able to make up rules just to be different. It is not an official's job to interject themselves in a match to the point where it seems as if they are making it about them. The rule's interpreter, WVSSAC, or whoever else should really do something about this situation and other situations like this that occur. It's a shame that we are talking about how awful a referee is instead of the good wrestling match that was going on until that point. I just feel sad for the two individuals in that match.

[masonbailey]

I dont have a problem with the 5 second interpretation of the rule. Sure, it's not specifically spelled out in the rule book.

But here's what is:

Rule 7 Section 6 Art 1: "...action is to be maintained throughout the match by the contestants wrestling aggressively whether in top, bottom, or neutral position..."

7-6-4: "It is stalling when the contestant in advantage position:
a. Does not wrestle aggressively and attempt to secure a fall"

7-6-6: "It is stalling when either wrestler:
c. repeatedly creates a stalemate position to prevent an opponent from scoring."

Most things are black/white and this doesn't specifically state one way or the other. However, these 3 protect the official. Stalling is a judgement call. If the top guy isn't wrestling "aggressively", then official can hit stalling. If the top man isn't trying to "attempt to secure a fall" (not returning to mat), ref can hit for stalling. If the top man is "preventing an opponent from scoring", i.e. not returning, just holding on and not returning, he can be hit for stalling.

As wrestlers and as coaches, we typically know which ref calls what and how he calls it. As refs, they should (and I know many of them do) have one way they call stalling and stick to it and be consistent. That way, you know who calls stalling quicker than others.

With that being said, don't stall and you'll be better off!

[guard0544]

In the end, whether the "five second rule" is literally in the rule book doesnt really matter does it? Obviously it is subjective if someone is stalling. Its up to the official to decide. If a particular ref has decided to utilize a 'five second rule" on returning a wrestler to the mat...that is just a part of his subjectivity,...isnt it? At least he is making it known its one of the measures he is going by when it comes to stalling...so one can coach their wrestler accordingly. Just my two cents.

Yeah, except if you have never had the referee before, how are coaches and wrestlers supposed to be aware of this so called "rule?" Is this referee so "great" that they can just make up whatever rules that they want? Imagine if a NFL, MLB, NBA, NCAA, etc. just made up individual rules. They would be fined, suspended, etc. Being an official does not mean that you should be able to make up rules just to be different. It is not an official's job to interject themselves in a match to the point where it seems as if they are making it about them. The rule's interpreter, WVSSAC, or whoever else should really do something about this situation and other situations like this that occur. It's a shame that we are talking about how awful a referee is instead of the good wrestling match that was going on until that point. I just feel sad for the two individuals in that match.

Typically a ref doesn't call it if the wrestler makes some strong attempts to return the guy but is unable to do it right away. Its a judgment call on the part of the ref. And anyone who coaches high school wrestling in WV should be well aware that most refs are going to hit a guy for stalling if more than 5 seconds go by and their wrestler has not attempted to bring the opponent back to the mat. The 5 seconds being used isn't some rarity. Its not a ref or two trying to be different. It is what most refs in the state go by. It is the norm. So, don't give me the "how are coaches and wrestlers supposed to be aware of this so called 'rule'" stuff. Everyone is aware of it. Furthermore, I heard one of the coaches who are complaining about it on here on the board make a comment to Jeremy Callen before the tournament began about how the rule book doesn't say anything about "five seconds" but nearly all the refs are acting like that is an official rule. So, this certainly is not a situation where the coaches or wrestlers were unaware that most refs will hit them for stalling after 5 seconds.

If you do not want to be hit for stalling...be more aggressive.