JV Trivia - Week Ending January 14th

[Sally]

Ok Bear I'll take the bait.

I can see you are not going to ignore the JV situation. I also understand you want to see more participation in WV Wrestling. More wrestlers equal stronger dual matches/tournaments which equal better fan base etc. You are preaching to the wrong folks if you want to see a change.

Do you think there is a Wrestling Coach in WV who does not want more wrestlers? Your point is maybe just a "Small" piece of the participation puzzle. To change the way the regional and state tournament are conducted is not a "Small" adjustment, FACT. The point I have tried to make to you in other threads is, Coaches have tried to change things for the better many times over the years. Some rule proposals seem to fall on Deaf Ears at the rules/governing body and nothing changes.

Lets say hypothetically your argument for JV wrestlers gets changed tomorrow. Allowing more wrestlers into the regional will not change the fact kids stop wrestling unexpectedly. We can name several kids we would expect to see on the wrestling mat this year but they chose not to. I try to see your perspective as a fan. Try and see the Teacher or Coach perspective and explain why some of our returning wrestlers choose not to wrestle. There are 2 returning state qualifiers in our hallways who just do not want to wrestle anymore, not because they were JV and couldn't compete at the regional. And I should not forget about the handful of talented incoming freshmen who are not participating. Maybe they decided not to wrestle because:
1. It's hard
2. They are tired of the sport
3. Parents won't let them
4. Grades
5. Girls or friends
6. Distractions like video games, hanging out on the weekend, parties, doing what teenagers do, football or baseball
7. See example 1 again

I say great job to these Varsity/JV Wrestlers and their programs who continue to put the best kid on the mat they can.

[captaincoalman]

If you are the back up quarterback for your football team but you are better than the other teams starting quarterback does this mean you should get to start for them?

[ZZChooseTop]

If you are the back up quarterback for your football team but you are better than the other teams starting quarterback does this mean you should get to start for them?

Love the football/team sports analogy. You're absolutely right, the JV QB can't take the opposing QBs place. Now for the counterpoint, in the sport of football if the opposing team doesn't have enough to play, they forfeit the game and NONE of their players get to play. I think Bear's JV issue began with the embarrassing situation our state finds itself in, having forfeits in the state tournament. For those of you who use the football analogy, let me watch you explain to Adams, Lusher, Hart etc that their entire team should be out of the state tournament because Indy doesn't have a 106.

[Bearhugger]

If you are the back up quarterback for your football team but you are better than the other teams starting quarterback does this mean you should get to start for them?

Football is a team sport. Wrestling is an individual sport first. Many people want to think it is a team sport first.

Come state tournament time, this will be proven even more. There will be schools sending only one or two wrestlers. These few wrestlers will go as an individual and do the best that they can. One to two wrestlers have no chance at a TEAM title, but they can still get a spot on the podium. You have to grasp this concept first before you continue to provide additional reasons why the out dated rules and system should stay intact. Good luck.

[Bearhugger]

If you are the back up quarterback for your football team but you are better than the other teams starting quarterback does this mean you should get to start for them?

The bottom line is this. There are a few JV wrestlers so far this season that have whipped the tails of other varsity wrestlers. The JV kids are beating ranked wrestlers. I just saw where this weekend, a JV wrestler beat a kid who PLACED IN LAST YEAR'S STATE TOURNAMENT.

For all of the tough talk I read about
"The prestige of being varsity"
"If you aren't good enough to be varsity, then why should you get to go to the state tournament"
"Participation trophies"

I would think that all of the "tough fans" would want the toughest kids in the mix. Let the tough kids settle it on the mat.

There will be more and more examples of JV wrestlers beating ranked varsity wrestlers coming this season. It will be worse next season and the season afterwards. The mockery will continue.

[RWWS]

What has the WVSSAC said about your idea?

[Gator]

This weekend also saw a JV wrestler beat last year's state qualifier and he won the tournament he was wrestling in also.

[mscoach64]

will AAA have enough wrestlers for a 16 man state tournament bracket?

[dontlikethelights]

First and foremost I am not now nor have I ever been a proponent of allowing JV wrestlers into the state tournament, so maybe I'm a little biased. I used to coach cross country at a high school, I won't mention which school to protect kids names for this story. Our team qualified for the state tournament. That year one of the better schools had 28 runners ahead of our 7th runner. That left 21 guys from one school that didn't get to compete at the state tournament that were faster than one of ours who did, several of whom could have been on the podium on the right day. Of those 28 kids they lost 2 between that season and the next (besides graduation). They understood the culture and were willing to sit behind better runners to improve and one day have a shot. Good kids get left behind in every sport due to being JV or being in a softer region, it just happens. The biggest changes I have seen from when my dad was coaching wrestling in 09-10 to the kids we have wrestling this season is 1.) the kids just don't care about anything, they don't want to work in the classroom or at practice, they expect everything to be handed to them. Our football coach heavily encourages his kids to wrestle and we encourage ours to run track, we have mostly the same handful of kids doing all three. 2.) our middle school team used to consist 50/50 of kids who have wrestled and newbies, now we have 1 or 2 that have wrestled before when they start. I partially believe this is in part due to clubs/local midget league programs. I am absolutely not saying anything bad about or young club teams, they have without a doubt made WV wrestling stronger. I do feel however you lose out on the kids who are more casual about the sport and the families who have a hard time to pay to travel everywhere that's required. Just my two cents on that. Believe me when I say that coaches are trying hard to get kids out but our culture as a country has vastly changed. Kids just aren't willing to put in the work required to be a wrestler or even a decent student anymore.

Ian Webster - McKinley Middle

[Bearhugger]

What has the WVSSAC said about your idea?

Whereas nothing can be done mid season, I am going to ride this season out and let the mockery grow.

Continue to compile more and more examples.

I am also going to try to learn what has been attempted in the past. I predict it is nothing.

I will probably achieve nothing. Overall, WV doesn't like change.

By the way, I moved away from WV in 1991 for employment reasons.

[Bearhugger]

This weekend also saw a JV wrestler beat last year's state qualifier and he won the tournament he was wrestling in also.

WOW!!!!!!! Are you kidding me? This is amazing. That JV kid should be allowed to enter the REGIONAL tournament. Seed him last or second to the last. Let him wrestle. The cream will rise to the top.

Some of these Varsity wrestlers are dodging bullets and getting an easier path because these JV kids are kept out of competition due to the out dated rules that are ruining the sport.

[Bearhugger]

If you follow the tournament scores close you will see some Jv wrestlers winning tournaments over varsity competition .

That is what has started all of this. It appears too many people do NOT want the best wrestlers in the state to compete for a spot on the podium.

These good JV wrestlers are making a mockery of the system. Coming off the bench and beating varsity wrestlers who are ranked in the top ten. I choose not to ignore it.

You're so correct Bearhugger. You mentioned earlier about A/AA 106 NOT having the best 16 at the state tournament. Are you referring to the 106 at EF?

EF's 106 is the strongest example. He has defeated many RANKED wrestlers in both AA/A and AAA. Stevie Wonder could SEE that he is clearly one of the best in the state.

The old timers do not see this as a problem. I see it as many 106 pounders will be "dodging a bullet" and getting both an easier path out of AA/A region 1 to the state tournament and also an easier path to the podium.

Wrestling is tough. Allowing the JV to wrestle/attempt to qualify in the regions will only make it tougher.

EF would qualify two 106 pounders and both would place at the state tournament. If this happened, then we can say the best showed up and performed. Currently, we all will know (some will never admit) that the best were not involved.

[Bearhugger]

First and foremost I am not now nor have I ever been a proponent of allowing JV wrestlers into the state tournament, so maybe I'm a little biased. I used to coach cross country at a high school, I won't mention which school to protect kids names for this story. Our team qualified for the state tournament. That year one of the better schools had 28 runners ahead of our 7th runner. That left 21 guys from one school that didn't get to compete at the state tournament that were faster than one of ours who did, several of whom could have been on the podium on the right day. Of those 28 kids they lost 2 between that season and the next (besides graduation). They understood the culture and were willing to sit behind better runners to improve and one day have a shot. Good kids get left behind in every sport due to being JV or being in a softer region, it just happens. The biggest changes I have seen from when my dad was coaching wrestling in 09-10 to the kids we have wrestling this season is 1.) the kids just don't care about anything, they don't want to work in the classroom or at practice, they expect everything to be handed to them. Our football coach heavily encourages his kids to wrestle and we encourage ours to run track, we have mostly the same handful of kids doing all three. 2.) our middle school team used to consist 50/50 of kids who have wrestled and newbies, now we have 1 or 2 that have wrestled before when they start. I partially believe this is in part due to clubs/local midget league programs. I am absolutely not saying anything bad about or young club teams, they have without a doubt made WV wrestling stronger. I do feel however you lose out on the kids who are more casual about the sport and the families who have a hard time to pay to travel everywhere that's required. Just my two cents on that. Believe me when I say that coaches are trying hard to get kids out but our culture as a country has vastly changed. Kids just aren't willing to put in the work required to be a wrestler or even a decent student anymore.

Ian Webster - McKinley Middle

Participation in wrestling is so low and some JV wrestlers are so good, the concept of allowing JV in the regional tournaments is a no brainer.

We need to quit "mudding the waters" with comparisons to other sports and what other states do and do not do.

As for the runners above, pile them all in one race. Take the best. If you can only take the top 10 and all 10 are from the same school, then the best are moving forward.

When opportunity is equal, then the best will move forward. When rules hold JVs back, the best will not always move forward. That is what we have not.

[Bearhugger]

What has the WVSSAC said about your idea?

Since you have brought up the WVSSAC, please share with me who I should contact specifically. Also, share any successes of failures you have had in any similar attempts to improve the conditions of wrestling. This will help facilitate my efforts.

Feel free to private message me.

Thanks

[RWWS]

A problem that you feel strongly about needs addressed. I am asking you what plans do you have in place to make these recommendations to the WVSSAC. You have a group that agrees with you in this situation that should be able to provide you with the information that you need to make this recommendation to the powers that be.

[Bearhugger]

A problem that you feel strongly about needs addressed. I am asking you what plans do you have in place to make these recommendations to the WVSSAC. You have a group that agrees with you in this situation that should be able to provide you with the information that you need to make this recommendation to the powers that be.

Is the WVSSAC located in Parkersburg?

[dontlikethelights]

Bearhugger

I believe comparing other states and sports is relevant, if other states have found ways to incorporate JV wrestlers that should be used to help build a case of presented to the WVSSAC. Plus I believe you were the one who referenced track as allowing 3 runners in the 100 meter dash for your case for including JV wrestlers . Just giving you a hard time, I know you mean well.

As far as opportunity, each wrestler has the same opportunity, qualify as your teams Varsity, qualify at regions, win the state tournament, much like college and international wrestling. Maybe we can ask Terry Brands how it felt to lose the US Olympic trials to the Atlanta Olympics Gold Medalist Kendall Cross in 1996.

I know this is a highly debated topic and I understand the agony of JV wrestlers who are simply stuck behind a strong lineup and I completely get your point, I just don't see it the same way.

Personally I think there are too many weight classes, knock it down to about 10, but that's not happening any time soon.

[Bearhugger]

Bearhugger

I believe comparing other states and sports is relevant, if other states have found ways to incorporate JV wrestlers that should be used to help build a case of presented to the WVSSAC. Plus I believe you were the one who referenced track as allowing 3 runners in the 100 meter dash for your case for including JV wrestlers . Just giving you a hard time, I know you mean well.

As far as opportunity, each wrestler has the same opportunity, qualify as your teams Varsity, qualify at regions, win the state tournament, much like college and international wrestling. Maybe we can ask Terry Brands how it felt to lose the US Olympic trials to the Atlanta Olympics Gold Medalist Kendall Cross in 1996.

I know this is a highly debated topic and I understand the agony of JV wrestlers who are simply stuck behind a strong lineup and I completely get your point, I just don't see it the same way.

Personally I think there are too many weight classes, knock it down to about 10, but that's not happening any time soon.

We are talking about high school wrestlers being given the opportunity to wrestle in the region. If they qualify, then they move on.

Terry Brands and Kendall Cross both had the opportunity to ENTER the Olympic Trials. I equate the Olympic Trials to the WV regional tournament. The wrestlers enter, they wrestle and they qualify. I equate the Olympics to the WV State Tournament. The QUALIFIERS compete for the gold.

Brands and Cross were not on the same college team either.

Reducing weight classes will kill the sport even more. Fewer weight classes will mean more weight cutting and fewer wrestlers on the mat. WRONG DIRECTION.

[RWWS]

Yes the SSAC is in Parkersburg

[dontlikethelights]

The US trials would be equivalent to team wrestle offs. World championships, continental championships, last chance qualifiers, etc. open spots for 19 countries to qualify, two members of the same country cannot both compete in the olympics, even though they may be the best two wrestlers in the world. Unless you're saying that two wrestlers from the same team shouldn't go to the state tournament, but I believe the dead horse laying in the grass outside says otherwise. I'm not sure how it says anything since it's dead, anyways I think you have valid points worth discussing to the WVSSAC; however I feel like you can't see both sides of the picture and simply try to talk louder than anyone with a different opinion than yours. We as a state are lucky to have such great wrestlers and depth on some teams that we can even have this discussion. Unfortunately there are teams who do everything they can to field 5-6 wrestlers and we must consider what is best for everyone on a broad spectrum.

[RWWS]

If you don't want to contact the SSAC directly you seem pretty connected you could reach out the the Head Coach in your area and go that route as well.

[Frank]

Bearhugger

I believe comparing other states and sports is relevant, if other states have found ways to incorporate JV wrestlers that should be used to help build a case of presented to the WVSSAC. Plus I believe you were the one who referenced track as allowing 3 runners in the 100 meter dash for your case for including JV wrestlers . Just giving you a hard time, I know you mean well.

As far as opportunity, each wrestler has the same opportunity, qualify as your teams Varsity, qualify at regions, win the state tournament, much like college and international wrestling. Maybe we can ask Terry Brands how it felt to lose the US Olympic trials to the Atlanta Olympics Gold Medalist Kendall Cross in 1996.

I know this is a highly debated topic and I understand the agony of JV wrestlers who are simply stuck behind a strong lineup and I completely get your point, I just don't see it the same way.

Personally I think there are too many weight classes, knock it down to about 10, but that's not happening any time soon.

Cutting out weight classes is an awful idea. If you ask the brands brothers, John smith or any other college, world team, Olympic coach they tell adding back the loss weight classes would be the first thing they would do.

[dunbar76]

Captaincoalman, you are correct. I had problems breaking the lineup for varsity eons ago. I wrestled , my jr. year, behind a kid who was undefeated going into the state tournament. He got hurt some that year and I wrestled enough to EARN my letter. Quite proud of it. The kid he beat in the regional finals beat me in overtime earlier in the season. I was varsity for all of my senior year. Back then, just 1-2 went to state tournament. I never went. No regrets, just trying to promote wrestling as a sport and helping kids grow and achieve. I coached for nine seasons. I'd love to see some changes to let kids wrestle in the big time.

[Jbee]

Get better and beat the varsity wrestler its as simple as that. There have been many jv kids throughout the years that sat behind a top wrestler for their entire career or waited their turn. what makes this generation any different. Entitled?
Someone enlighten me on other states that allow jv kids to qualify to their high school athletic association sanctioned team state tournament.

Most sports above youth are struggling for participants its just not wrestling. lack of participation is a direct result of population decrease. Wood County has lost 10k students in the last 25 years or so. private schools, home schooling and just leaving the state. add that with the last 2 generations just are not involved in sports as much as past generations.

just my opinion.

[dontlikethelights]

I completely agree with Jbee, he did a way better job of what I was trying to say. I'm not sure what you're talking about with adding weight classes back? There have been 10 college weight classes with only minor changes since 1952. In fact over time High School, College and International Wrestling have only added weight classes and shifted weight, no removals that I'm aware of. When we have weight classes 5-6 lbs apart and both can't fill a 16 man bracket I don't see why it's a bad idea. Middle School wresting has 1 more weight class to cover 28 more pounds than high school. I can see additional weight cutting being an issue; however doing the proper hydration, and skin fold test was supposed to eliminate massive cuts. We see how well that worked.

[voltair]

Let me just put a wrinkle in the argument for JV wrestling regions and states. I understand the argument for the best going to the states. When my son wrestled, I remember going to seeding meetings listening to arguments on who beat who and who should be seeded where. When my son's name was brought up, I always said put him wherever you guys want, it doesn't matter to us. At the conclusion of the tournament, he walked away with the first place trophy being seeded 5th. (Cream rises to the top.) At the start of this year, I looked at the regions and, like everyone, said "wow." I knew there would be easy street to the state for some kids. I thought, like Bearhugger, we should allow JV into the mix. However, I quickly realized how this would be a HUGE problem. Let's use Indy as a reference since we are all familiar with their program. Yes, they are deep in talent in several weight classes and have well over 20 kids in the practice room every day. So if we magically changed the rule to allow all JV to wrestle, I would be willing to bet that Indy would have several weight classes with several state placers this year. Then next year, Indy would have 50 kids in the wrestling room and next year would qualify their own 4 kids in regions in every weight class. I would also assume other programs like Parkersburg would do the same. So within a couple of years, there would not be a real state tournament-- only a few teams possessing the best wrestlers and small schools like Oak Hill, Pikeview, Man and etc. would have no program at all. If we allow JV to wrestle at the states, this is the problematic outcome. However, this is just my 2 cents.

[Bearhugger]

The US trials would be equivalent to team wrestle offs. World championships, continental championships, last chance qualifiers, etc. open spots for 19 countries to qualify, two members of the same country cannot both compete in the olympics, even though they may be the best two wrestlers in the world. Unless you're saying that two wrestlers from the same team shouldn't go to the state tournament, but I believe the dead horse laying in the grass outside says otherwise. I'm not sure how it says anything since it's dead, anyways I think you have valid points worth discussing to the WVSSAC; however I feel like you can't see both sides of the picture and simply try to talk louder than anyone with a different opinion than yours. We as a state are lucky to have such great wrestlers and depth on some teams that we can even have this discussion. Unfortunately there are teams who do everything they can to field 5-6 wrestlers and we must consider what is best for everyone on a broad spectrum.

The only two sides that I see is what we have now and letting the JV in the regional tournaments.

I think the Middle School WSAZ is a better comparison and example as opposed to the Olympic trials.

[Frank]

Let me just put a wrinkle in the argument for JV wrestling regions and states. I understand the argument for the best going to the states. When my son wrestled, I remember going to seeding meetings listening to arguments on who beat who and who should be seeded where. When my son's name was brought up, I always said put him wherever you guys want, it doesn't matter to us. At the conclusion of the tournament, he walked away with the first place trophy being seeded 5th. (Cream rises to the top.) At the start of this year, I looked at the regions and, like everyone, said "wow." I knew there would be easy street to the state for some kids. I thought, like Bearhugger, we should allow JV into the mix. However, I quickly realized how this would be a HUGE problem. Let's use Indy as a reference since we are all familiar with their program. Yes, they are deep in talent in several weight classes and have well over 20 kids in the practice room every day. So if we magically changed the rule to allow all JV to wrestle, I would be willing to bet that Indy would have several weight classes with several state placers this year. Then next year, Indy would have 50 kids in the wrestling room and next year would qualify their own 4 kids in regions in every weight class. I would also assume other programs like Parkersburg would do the same. So within a couple of years, there would not be a real state tournament-- only a few teams possessing the best wrestlers and small schools like Oak Hill, Pikeview, Man and etc. would have no program at all. If we allow JV to wrestle at the states, this is the problematic outcome. However, this is just my 2 cents.

That's the best argument that I have heard against JV entering. I will have to think about that.

[Bearhugger]

Let me just put a wrinkle in the argument for JV wrestling regions and states. I understand the argument for the best going to the states. When my son wrestled, I remember going to seeding meetings listening to arguments on who beat who and who should be seeded where. When my son's name was brought up, I always said put him wherever you guys want, it doesn't matter to us. At the conclusion of the tournament, he walked away with the first place trophy being seeded 5th. (Cream rises to the top.) At the start of this year, I looked at the regions and, like everyone, said "wow." I knew there would be easy street to the state for some kids. I thought, like Bearhugger, we should allow JV into the mix. However, I quickly realized how this would be a HUGE problem. Let's use Indy as a reference since we are all familiar with their program. Yes, they are deep in talent in several weight classes and have well over 20 kids in the practice room every day. So if we magically changed the rule to allow all JV to wrestle, I would be willing to bet that Indy would have several weight classes with several state placers this year. Then next year, Indy would have 50 kids in the wrestling room and next year would qualify their own 4 kids in regions in every weight class. I would also assume other programs like Parkersburg would do the same. So within a couple of years, there would not be a real state tournament-- only a few teams possessing the best wrestlers and small schools like Oak Hill, Pikeview, Man and etc. would have no program at all. If we allow JV to wrestle at the states, this is the problematic outcome. However, this is just my 2 cents.

The one to two school domination you fear.................is already here.

Last season, in AAA, Parkersburg South qualified 14 wrestlers out of 14 weight classes. They won their region 282.5 to 186. The lowest team score in their region was 74 points. 282.5 / 74 = 3.82.

In the state tournament, South won the title with 198.5 to 134.50. I didn't look up how many place winners they had, but it was a lot.

In AA/A, Independence qualified 14 wrestlers out of 14 weight classes. They won their region 309.50 to 195. The lowest team score in their region was 8. 309.50 / 8 = 38.69.

In the state tournament, Indy won the title with 254.50 to 131. They put 12 out of 14 wrestlers on the podium.

To me, this is domination by two schools.

To these schools, wrestling is a team sport. To the schools with 4 to 6 wrestlers, it is an individual sport.

With the existing domination happening NOW, how is it going to throw a wrench in the wrestling machine if 2 to 4 JV wrestlers break through the regional tournaments and wrestling in the state tournament???????????????

What do we lose by a few JV wrestlers being in the state tournament?
1. Ohhhhh, some coach might have his JV wrestler take a dive against the Varsity wrestler to gain some points. ANSWER: Look at the domination above, it will take 20+ JV wrestlers to take dives to make up the score differences listed above.
2. It hurts the smaller programs. ANSWER: They are already hurting.


What do we gain?
1. The best in the state are participating.
2. The rankings have more meaning. Currently, we have JV kids who have beat ranked kids.
3. A single wrestler is not penalized because he is behind one of the best in the state.
4. It won't hurt participation any. It should improve participation.

[Sally]

I posted this earlier in another thread for Bearhugger. I guess he did not see it so here it is again.

Email: wvssac@wvssac.org.
Web: http://www.wvssac.org.
Phone: 304-485-5494.
Fax: 304-428-5431

As someone posted above, participation is low in many sports now. Your crusade for the JV wrestler is just one facet. I think voltair has a valid point, the rich will get richer. Yes I understand you are advocating for the "Best State Tournament Possible." I think you fail to respect or see what many coaches have done and are doing for our sport now.
Please call the WVSSAC. Tell them you want to speak to Mr. Wayne Ryan concerning wrestling. The majority of the staff are new so good luck asking questions about the past. It's much more enjoyable to be the spectator and comment on how you would make things so much better. Show up, pay your admission fee, and have an opinion. Start volunteering at your local wrestling team's practices and work with the kids you are advocating for. You will be rewarded more for this internally than spending time on the forum.