2X as likely to qualify in AAA v AA/A?

[aacoach61]

These old eyes are not the best, but by my count 81 wrestlers competed in the Region I AAA tournament while 160 wrestlers competed in the Region I AA/A brackets. My guess is that these numbers would be pretty close to the same in the other three regionals, but if someone wants to count and post those figures, better yet. Not filling the entire 16-wrestler brackets at the AAA state tournament tells me something is wrong.

The WVSSAC needs to look at this two division alignment. Is it fair that it is thus twice as likely to qualify to go to Huntington if you attend a big school? With 14 weight classes each with 4 qualifiers, 81 AAA wrestlers competed for 56 AAA spots, while 160 AA/A wrestlers competed for their 56 spots. It just makes you want to go hmmm...

[aaacoach90]

Heres a quick and easy fix and its very simple math.
Number of schools.
AA Has 10 more .
Send top 3 to AAA and bottem 3 to A.
EVERYONE in with 32 man brackets and AA has a pigtail if needed. 
Seed the brackets like NJ Pa and other lead wrestling states do. 
3 State Champions and teams
AAA. 29+3= 32 
AA. 3 - 6 = 33
A. 29+3=32

The top 3 AA schools by population with wrestling would move to AAA which are.
Lincoln County High School871
Winfield High School861
Oak Hill High851
And the bottem 3 AA schools go to A which are.
Clay County High School551
Oak Glen High School544
Petersburg High School466

[mscoach64]

been saying this for over 15 years

[guard0544]

While the odds of a randomly selected wrestler qualifying in AA are significantly less than a randomly selected wrestler qualifying in AAA, that does not necessarily mean its easier to qualify for the state tournament in AAA. That could only be determined by a closer examination of the top 4 finishers in each region/AA/AAA. There could be 19 kids in a AA region, but if only one of them could beat one of the top 4 finishers in AAA for a given region...the sheer number in AA didnt make it more difficult to qualify. That being said, I do suspect, overall, it is more difficult to qualify in AA.

[ringworm14]

In a perfect world this works, but sadly it just isnt plausible.Sure you have 32, 33, and 32 teams per division, but you will not get full 32 man brackets out of that. You may not even get full 16 man brackets in AA or A. Each team would have to have a full lineup for this idea to work and that simply is not the case. Id like to see the numbers on how many schools actually field full lineups. In the grand scheme id say theres not that many.

As stated before, a single all class state tournament solves this issue. Take 8 from 4 regions or vice versa 4 from 8 smaller regions , or figure out a way to divide up 2 regions and somehow take 16 from each or maybe go from a sectional to regional to states similar to what OH does. You have quite a few options and paths you could take for the qualification processs. and If for some ungodly reason, although i dont think it would occur, if there wasnt a full bracket devise a way to get at large bids from another region or something of the sorts. Bunch of different ways you could go about that as well.

Either way this would make for a much better state tournament. Instead of 6 you place the top 8, hell maybe even top 10. And you would have high quality elite wrestlers going at it all the way through. Lets take a look and use 132LB weight class for a combined example for 32 qualifiers. Ive listed the 32 state qualifiers this year in order of placement and by region. AAA listed first and AA second.

C-1 Billy Gooch, Wheeling Park
C-1 Caleb Rea, Weir
C-2 Marco Tapia, Jefferson
C-2 Kemo Summers, Bridgeport
C-3 Elijah Bailey, St Albans
C-3 Hunter Taylor, Independence
C-4 Bo Moler, Parkersburg
C-4 Wyatt Powell, Wirt County
R-1 Auston Love, John Marshall
R-1 Peyton Hall, Oak Glen
R-2 Noah Wahler, Hedgesville
R-2 Anthony Colombo, South Harrison
R-3 Izak Petry, Riverside
R-3 Clayton Pettry, Liberty (R)
R-4 Gavin Quiocho, Parkersburg South
R-4 Trevor Hunt, Wahama
T-1 Brise Bennett, University
T-1 Lane Flint, East Fairmont
T-2 Dimitri Emswiler, Washington
T-2 Gunner Childers, Liberty Harrison
T-3 Zach Mullins, Greenbrier East
T-3 Seth Martin, Oak Hill
T-4 Evan King, Ripley
T-4 Mason Deem, Williamstown
F-1 Andres Ramos, Brooke
F-1 Brandon Shaw, Berkeley Springs
F-2 Boca Kubovcik, Musselman
F-2 Gage Smith, Doddridge County
F-3 Brock Perry, Capital
F-3 Dan Nutter, Greenbrier West
F-4 AJ Dempsey, Huntington
F-4 Tyler Messinger, Lincoln County

You could use anther form of the pill, or personally i would like to see a panel seed the tournament. Factor in regional placement, head to head, common opponent, etc, etc to get this done. Would be harder but could definitely be done and really should be done.

That is an absolute gauntlet of a weight class. Whoever comes out on top is the undisputed 132 lb champ of WV. Great matches all throughout the tournament. Why would you not want to see this type of wrestling?!?!?
This weight class would be absolutely loaded!
Are there a bunch of good wrestlers that dont place? Yes, quite a few. But there are good wrestlers that dont place now as it is or dont even make it to states. And it makes placing mean that much more.
if you dont place and want to get on the podium, put in the work in the offseason and get better!
Do not complain about small schools cant compete, this or that, blah blah blah. If you want on the podium at the end of the day you will find a way.
Also, in most years id say brackets like this would allow for more teams to climb into the team title race conversation.
You could name an overall team champ, and then name division champs like they do at WSAZ if you wanted.

And then on top of that there could also be a duals team state championship. Multiple different ways you could set this up as well.

For me i just dont see how any one could argue against this set up or something similar. It would definitely improve the quality of the WV State tournament and its wrestling in general.

[2sexy]

ringworm14
I like your idea. and yes it would improve wrestling in our State. but it wont happen cause whom ever is in charge are afraid it wouldn't work or just plain scared of change. Man up West Virginia lets fix this on going problem.

[aaacoach90]

While it would excite some to have an all combined states I would bet money it would not excite the kids and you would see the numbers drop in the sport also. I also believe if this was the way to go for wrestling you'd see Pa NJ Oh Mich and the rest of the top wrestling states have just 1 champion. I do understand our population just agree to disagree on one class.

[ringworm14]

While it would excite some to have an all combined states I would bet money it would not excite the kids and you would see the numbers drop in the sport also. I also believe if this was the way to go for wrestling you'd see Pa NJ Oh Mich and the rest of the top wrestling states have just 1 champion. I do understand our population just agree to disagree on one class.

Although ill admit i dont know how a few of those states wrestling championship is set up, id say a big reason those states dont wrestle an all class state tournament is simply because they are lucky enough to have great numbers and can field full brackets full of high quality wrestlers.
population of those states from the 2016 census are
PA 12.7 million
NJ 8.9 million
OH 11.6 million
MICH 9.9 million

whereas WV is at 1.8 million, and we are struggling to fill 16 man brackets in a AAA and AA/ Set up.

As ive stated on here California, with a population of 39 million runs a single class , 32 man bracket for their championships. Of course they arent in a fight for numbers, but i still feel like it would be a good move for WV to go to a single class state tournament.

And of course there will always be differing opinions but i enjoy having nice conversations with people about this topic. Always nice to get different points of view on a subject.

[KDunbar]

These old eyes are not the best, but by my count 81 wrestlers competed in the Region I AAA tournament while 160 wrestlers competed in the Region I AA/A brackets. My guess is that these numbers would be pretty close to the same in the other three regionals, but if someone wants to count and post those figures, better yet. Not filling the entire 16-wrestler brackets at the AAA state tournament tells me something is wrong.

The WVSSAC needs to look at this two division alignment. Is it fair that it is thus twice as likely to qualify to go to Huntington if you attend a big school? With 14 weight classes each with 4 qualifiers, 81 AAA wrestlers competed for 56 AAA spots, while 160 AA/A wrestlers competed for their 56 spots. It just makes you want to go hmmm...

Getting back somewhat to the original topic of this thread, I don't know if the original implication was that it is 2X "easier" to qualify in AAA or not. I'm just asking, was the term "likely" meant to equate with "easy". I'm thinking how easy it is to qualify is more dependent on how good a wrestler is as opposed to the number of wrestlers in the tournament. I'm guessing the only way to actually find this out really isn't dependent on comparing the top 4 from the different regions, but could only be determined by setting up a bracket of those who did not place in the top 4 and then see how the AAA wrestlers fare against the AA/A wrestlers. Never going to happen, but would be the only real way to answer the question short of "seeding" those same non-qualifiers and looking at how they stack up on paper.

[wvwrestlingdad]

Why qualify anybody split all wrestling schools evenly by enrollment. Top 30 Middle 30 and Bottom 30 and have a full 32 man bracket tournament and crown 3 classes of champions and teams.

[guard0544]

These old eyes are not the best, but by my count 81 wrestlers competed in the Region I AAA tournament while 160 wrestlers competed in the Region I AA/A brackets. My guess is that these numbers would be pretty close to the same in the other three regionals, but if someone wants to count and post those figures, better yet. Not filling the entire 16-wrestler brackets at the AAA state tournament tells me something is wrong.

The WVSSAC needs to look at this two division alignment. Is it fair that it is thus twice as likely to qualify to go to Huntington if you attend a big school? With 14 weight classes each with 4 qualifiers, 81 AAA wrestlers competed for 56 AAA spots, while 160 AA/A wrestlers competed for their 56 spots. It just makes you want to go hmmm...

Getting back somewhat to the original topic of this thread, I don't know if the original implication was that it is 2X "easier" to qualify in AAA or not. I'm just asking, was the term "likely" meant to equate with "easy". I'm thinking how easy it is to qualify is more dependent on how good a wrestler is as opposed to the number of wrestlers in the tournament. I'm guessing the only way to actually find this out really isn't dependent on comparing the top 4 from the different regions, but could only be determined by setting up a bracket of those who did not place in the top 4 and then see how the AAA wrestlers fare against the AA/A wrestlers. Never going to happen, but would be the only real way to answer the question short of "seeding" those same non-qualifiers and looking at how they stack up on paper.

You can’t ignore the qualifiers. That’s what determines how easy or difficult it is to qualify. If you can’t beat one or two of them you are not qualifying. It is irrelevant how you fair against the non-qualifiers.

[KDunbar]

These old eyes are not the best, but by my count 81 wrestlers competed in the Region I AAA tournament while 160 wrestlers competed in the Region I AA/A brackets. My guess is that these numbers would be pretty close to the same in the other three regionals, but if someone wants to count and post those figures, better yet. Not filling the entire 16-wrestler brackets at the AAA state tournament tells me something is wrong.

The WVSSAC needs to look at this two division alignment. Is it fair that it is thus twice as likely to qualify to go to Huntington if you attend a big school? With 14 weight classes each with 4 qualifiers, 81 AAA wrestlers competed for 56 AAA spots, while 160 AA/A wrestlers competed for their 56 spots. It just makes you want to go hmmm...

Getting back somewhat to the original topic of this thread, I don't know if the original implication was that it is 2X "easier" to qualify in AAA or not. I'm just asking, was the term "likely" meant to equate with "easy". I'm thinking how easy it is to qualify is more dependent on how good a wrestler is as opposed to the number of wrestlers in the tournament. I'm guessing the only way to actually find this out really isn't dependent on comparing the top 4 from the different regions, but could only be determined by setting up a bracket of those who did not place in the top 4 and then see how the AAA wrestlers fare against the AA/A wrestlers. Never going to happen, but would be the only real way to answer the question short of "seeding" those same non-qualifiers and looking at how they stack up on paper.

You can’t ignore the qualifiers. That’s what determines how easy or difficult it is to qualify. If you can’t beat one or two of them you are not qualifying. It is irrelevant how you fair against the non-qualifiers.

I don't really see the point to debate this, but it seems to me the initial point being made was that the 4 qualifiers from AAA had a more likely (and/or possibly an easier) chance to qualify than the 4 AA/A qualifiers. Their qualifying therefore would not be dependent on beating each other, but just how good all the non-qualifiers were that they had to beat to get there. In other words, it may not have mattered how many wrestlers were in AA/A if they were not the same quality as AAA. I'm not saying that was or is the case. I'm just saying the number of opponents is not as important as the quality of the opponents. Therefore, to qualify it is only relevant as to how you fared against the non-qualifiers. How one fared against the qualifiers only decided what "qualifying" place you finished in. Now if one wanted to say the four qualifiers from one class were better than the other, then the same thing goes, it's not the quantity but the quality.

[Matofficial]

Just a point of correction. The last time I looked aaacoach90 NJ has a one class state tournament.
David Jeffrey

[NhsMom]

Getting back somewhat to the original topic of this thread, I don't know if the original implication was that it is 2X "easier" to qualify in AAA or not. I'm just asking, was the term "likely" meant to equate with "easy". I'm thinking how easy it is to qualify is more dependent on how good a wrestler is as opposed to the number of wrestlers in the tournament. I'm guessing the only way to actually find this out really isn't dependent on comparing the top 4 from the different regions, but could only be determined by setting up a bracket of those who did not place in the top 4 and then see how the AAA wrestlers fare against the AA/A wrestlers. Never going to happen, but would be the only real way to answer the question short of "seeding" those same non-qualifiers and looking at how they stack up on paper.

You can’t ignore the qualifiers. That’s what determines how easy or difficult it is to qualify. If you can’t beat one or two of them you are not qualifying. It is irrelevant how you fair against the non-qualifiers.

I don't really see the point to debate this, but it seems to me the initial point being made was that the 4 qualifiers from AAA had a more likely (and/or possibly an easier) chance to qualify than the 4 AA/A qualifiers. Their qualifying therefore would not be dependent on beating each other, but just how good all the non-qualifiers were that they had to beat to get there. In other words, it may not have mattered how many wrestlers were in AA/A if they were not the same quality as AAA. I'm not saying that was or is the case. I'm just saying the number of opponents is not as important as the quality of the opponents. Therefore, to qualify it is only relevant as to how you fared against the non-qualifiers. How one fared against the qualifiers only decided what "qualifying" place you finished in. Now if one wanted to say the four qualifiers from one class were better than the other, then the same thing goes, it's not the quantity but the quality.

While fundamentally I understand that the quality of opppnents is key, you can’t say that making top four in a six man bracket is not fundamentally easier than in a 16 man bracket. The volume of wrestlers in AA/A alone limits Qualifiers. There are plenty of kids sitting home who not only could beat the AA/A Qualifiers from another region, but could also have easily beat the AAA Qualifiers also. Look at the three weight classes in AAA with byes. Everyone who showed up at those regions with 4 or less got in, just by showing up.

[guard0544]

You can’t ignore the qualifiers. That’s what determines how easy or difficult it is to qualify. If you can’t beat one or two of them you are not qualifying. It is irrelevant how you fair against the non-qualifiers.

I don't really see the point to debate this, but it seems to me the initial point being made was that the 4 qualifiers from AAA had a more likely (and/or possibly an easier) chance to qualify than the 4 AA/A qualifiers. Their qualifying therefore would not be dependent on beating each other, but just how good all the non-qualifiers were that they had to beat to get there. In other words, it may not have mattered how many wrestlers were in AA/A if they were not the same quality as AAA. I'm not saying that was or is the case. I'm just saying the number of opponents is not as important as the quality of the opponents. Therefore, to qualify it is only relevant as to how you fared against the non-qualifiers. How one fared against the qualifiers only decided what "qualifying" place you finished in. Now if one wanted to say the four qualifiers from one class were better than the other, then the same thing goes, it's not the quantity but the quality.

While fundamentally I understand that the quality of opppnents is key, you can’t say that making top four in a six man bracket is not fundamentally easier than in a 16 man bracket. The volume of wrestlers in AA/A alone limits Qualifiers. There are plenty of kids sitting home who not only could beat the AA/A Qualifiers from another region, but could also have easily beat the AAA Qualifiers also. Look at the three weight classes in AAA with byes. Everyone who showed up at those regions with 4 or less got in, just by showing up.

The number of wrestlers is irrelevant. Bottom line is you have to be in the top 4. It could be more difficult to be in the top four in a 7 team region depending on the teams. But I’ve glanced through the placers in each region and overall it does seem AA has significantly less below average wrestlers qualifying than AAA.

[KDunbar]

You can’t ignore the qualifiers. That’s what determines how easy or difficult it is to qualify. If you can’t beat one or two of them you are not qualifying. It is irrelevant how you fair against the non-qualifiers.

I don't really see the point to debate this, but it seems to me the initial point being made was that the 4 qualifiers from AAA had a more likely (and/or possibly an easier) chance to qualify than the 4 AA/A qualifiers. Their qualifying therefore would not be dependent on beating each other, but just how good all the non-qualifiers were that they had to beat to get there. In other words, it may not have mattered how many wrestlers were in AA/A if they were not the same quality as AAA. I'm not saying that was or is the case. I'm just saying the number of opponents is not as important as the quality of the opponents. Therefore, to qualify it is only relevant as to how you fared against the non-qualifiers. How one fared against the qualifiers only decided what "qualifying" place you finished in. Now if one wanted to say the four qualifiers from one class were better than the other, then the same thing goes, it's not the quantity but the quality.

While fundamentally I understand that the quality of opppnents is key, you can’t say that making top four in a six man bracket is not fundamentally easier than in a 16 man bracket. The volume of wrestlers in AA/A alone limits Qualifiers. There are plenty of kids sitting home who not only could beat the AA/A Qualifiers from another region, but could also have easily beat the AAA Qualifiers also. Look at the three weight classes in AAA with byes. Everyone who showed up at those regions with 4 or less got in, just by showing up.

I'm guessing that where we are slightly differing in opinion was that you are looking at some specific brackets and I'm just talking about the quantity vs quality issue in general.