State Tournament needs changed

[mscoach64]

Can we now do something about how the State Tournament is divided? We have 32 AAA teams now and the rest are AA or A. That means 25% (or so) of the wrestlers are in AAA and the rest are in AA/A. Plus, we now have AA Champs and A Champs. But, a A wrestler can be knocked out of the tournament by the AA wrestler and vice versa.

We either need:

1. AAA/AA/A Divisions
2. AAA/Top AA and Bottom AA/A Divisions.

I know some will say we need 1 classification. But, that will do nothing to encourage more participation and it is not a viable option. One classification would discourage more participation.

[aacoach32]

There are enough single A schools with wrestling to have a separate single A class in wrestling. There should be a separate single A class.

[KDunbar]

Has anybody actually counted up the actual numbers of wrestlers in AA and in A, compared to AAA? Not number of teams, but the number of wrestlers. I haven't and I'm too lazy to do so, but are 75% of the wrestlers actually in AA/A? Not trying to counter the opinion for a separate A tournament, just wondering about the statement of fact and if there are adequate enough wrestlers at A, for example, at each weight class to warrant separate tournament brackets. What are the exact numbers since some regions seem not to fill weight classes even with the AA/A combined.

[KDunbar]

I lied. I did look, at least at region 1 AA/A. There may be enough teams, just not enough wrestlers. If you divide them up, probably might as well as skip regionals and just send everyone to the State Tournament. You would have a "true" A champion, if that's meaningful and the soul purpose of diluting down the competition.

[Bearhugger]

My good friend "TrueSouthFanFromBugTussleHighSchool" pointed out his observation that is quite interesting. We have a tournament in place called the "Single A Challenge". Last season's Single A State Tournament Team Champion Greenbrier West did not attend the Single A Challenge. Their schedule is not posted on WVMat yet, so their 2020 intentions are not known.

Based on the schedule that is posted for Single A Powerhouse Wirt County, they are not attending the Single A Challenge in 2020.

When the top two Single A schools elect to skip the Single A Challenge, it makes some wonder what separating Single A away from AA will really accomplish.

I like the Single A Challenge. I think it is a great creation. However, last season's brackets were pretty depleted.

What makes more sense is to shift some of these higher populated AA schools up into AAA for wrestling.

[coach_williams]

Just go to a single class and leave it at that.

Moving teams from AA/A to AAA just relocates the problem. Instead of having byes at AAA we will have them at AA/A. Problem not solved.

[mscoach64]

Just go to a single class and leave it at that.

Moving teams from AA/A to AAA just relocates the problem. Instead of having byes at AAA we will have them at AA/A. Problem not solved.

Not sure how 1 class would encourage participation. I'd imagine that would severely lower the number of wrestlers around the state. So, I definitely dont think that would solve the problem

[Bearhugger]

Perhaps a new approach is needed in trying to understand the perplexities of participation. I strongly believe the problem is cultural. Each community (school district) makes of breaks the wrestling team. If the community supports it, then the high school puts together a respectable team. If the community doesn't support it, then the high school simply has a team that should be respected for "charging the hill".

Greenbrier West and Wirt County are Single A schools. They routinely put together strong teams that jump in and compete with AAA and AA teams at big tournaments like the WSAZ. On the other hand, AAA schools like Capital and South Charleston do not. Both Capital and South Charleston have little to zero feeding middle schools. Why??? Why can't these feeder middle schools put together a team?? Combining classes into one all class tournament or creating a AAAA class and mixing/matching state tournaments is never going to help the high schools that do not have middle schools feeding them.

Stonewall Jackson Middle School feeds Capital. My mother lives in that school district. Her neighbors do NOT send their kids to that middle school. I have friends who live within walking distance and do NOT send their kids there. One could take upon themselves that the principal has their hands full enough in surviving each school day rather than creating opportunities for the students. In return, Capital High School loses out.

[firedawg64]

I believe it should be AAA, AA, A Format take the best 4 out of each region and go with that. Not sure why kids have to compete with AA schools to win A state champion.

[Lloyd Christmas]

Just go to a single class and leave it at that.

Moving teams from AA/A to AAA just relocates the problem. Instead of having byes at AAA we will have them at AA/A. Problem not solved.

Exactly!!! Have 8 regions of 4 or 4 regions of 8. There would still be 32 wrestlers in each weight class. Place the top 8. And give team trophies to A, AA, and AAA and give OW to a A, AA, AAA.

[Gator]

Just go to a single class and leave it at that.

Moving teams from AA/A to AAA just relocates the problem. Instead of having byes at AAA we will have them at AA/A. Problem not solved.

Exactly!!! Have 8 regions of 4 or 4 regions of 8. There would still be 32 wrestlers in each weight class. Place the top 8. And give team trophies to A, AA, and AAA and give OW to a A, AA, AAA.

Then you’d have the OVAC tournament, which would be great!

[coach_williams]

Just go to a single class and leave it at that.

Moving teams from AA/A to AAA just relocates the problem. Instead of having byes at AAA we will have them at AA/A. Problem not solved.

Not sure how 1 class would encourage participation. I'd imagine that would severely lower the number of wrestlers around the state. So, I definitely dont think that would solve the problem

I agree that it would not encourage participation and I have made that argument before. However, everyone seems to be worked up over an occasional bye at states and the only real way to eliminate them is to go to a one-class tournament. Switching schools from AA/A to AAA just moves the byes from AAA to AA/A.

[mscoach64]

Just go to a single class and leave it at that.

Moving teams from AA/A to AAA just relocates the problem. Instead of having byes at AAA we will have them at AA/A. Problem not solved.

Not sure how 1 class would encourage participation. I'd imagine that would severely lower the number of wrestlers around the state. So, I definitely dont think that would solve the problem

I agree that it would not encourage participation and I have made that argument before. However, everyone seems to be worked up over an occasional bye at states and the only real way to eliminate them is to go to a one-class tournament. Switching schools from AA/A to AAA just moves the byes from AAA to AA/A.

I think there are plenty of wrestlers in the AA/A division that if shifted around to AAA/AA and AA/A, that would fill the bracket. Seems like there were plenty of guys who didn't make the state tournament in many AA/A regional tourneys

[Justdeserts]

Just go to a single class and leave it at that.

Moving teams from AA/A to AAA just relocates the problem. Instead of having byes at AAA we will have them at AA/A. Problem not solved.

Not sure how 1 class would encourage participation. I'd imagine that would severely lower the number of wrestlers around the state. So, I definitely dont think that would solve the problem

It would fill the brackets, that's how.
You think your wrestlers would quit if WV had an all class state tournament? I disagree.
Young wrestlers who have had love for the sport, discipline, and perseverance instilled in them as they came up through youth and middle school programs would not suddenly quit when they got to high school because "the state tournament is too tough" -- what an absurd idea.
The state tournament is supposed to be tough. It is supposed to be something to strive for, the ultimate goal. High school state wrestling championships are not about participation trophies.

[coach_williams]

Not sure how 1 class would encourage participation. I'd imagine that would severely lower the number of wrestlers around the state. So, I definitely dont think that would solve the problem

I agree that it would not encourage participation and I have made that argument before. However, everyone seems to be worked up over an occasional bye at states and the only real way to eliminate them is to go to a one-class tournament. Switching schools from AA/A to AAA just moves the byes from AAA to AA/A.

I think there are plenty of wrestlers in the AA/A division that if shifted around to AAA/AA and AA/A, that would fill the bracket. Seems like there were plenty of guys who didn't make the state tournament in many AA/A regional tourneys

Now that I look, you are correct. Shifting a few schools to AAA would not result in byes. It would just result in wrestlers with losing records getting into the state tournament like happens now in AAA. Balancing the schools 50/50 between the AAA and AA/A would kill AA/A simply because so many schools in AA/A barely have a team.

Also, after looking I see that every AAA region had at least 4 qualifiers in every weight class, so there shouldn't have been any byes in AAA last year either.

[mscoach64]

Just go to a single class and leave it at that.

Moving teams from AA/A to AAA just relocates the problem. Instead of having byes at AAA we will have them at AA/A. Problem not solved.

Not sure how 1 class would encourage participation. I'd imagine that would severely lower the number of wrestlers around the state. So, I definitely dont think that would solve the problem

It would fill the brackets, that's how.
You think your wrestlers would quit if WV had an all class state tournament? I disagree.
Young wrestlers who have had love for the sport, discipline, and perseverance instilled in them as they came up through youth and middle school programs would not suddenly quit when they got to high school because "the state tournament is too tough" -- what an absurd idea.
The state tournament is supposed to be tough. It is supposed to be something to strive for, the ultimate goal. High school state wrestling championships are not about participation trophies.

Here we go with the "participation trophies" statement again. No one is giving out participation trophies in sports except the youth wrestling tournaments. You are dismissing that the kids who didn't make the state tourney in AA and A as kids who didn't strive to get there, or see it as an ultimate goal, or that it wasn't already tough. The 1 class state tournament is the most absurd idea (in my opinion) that anyone has when it comes to "fixing" the sport and/or the wrestling state tournament.

How you guys can look and see there are 29 schools (soon to be 32) in 1 classification and all the rest of the schools in the other classification as being equal or even is beyond my reasoning of fairness.

[KDunbar]

Can we now do something about how the State Tournament is divided? We have 32 AAA teams now and the rest are AA or A. That means 25% (or so) of the wrestlers are in AAA and the rest are in AA/A. Plus, we now have AA Champs and A Champs. But, a A wrestler can be knocked out of the tournament by the AA wrestler and vice versa.

We either need:

1. AAA/AA/A Divisions
2. AAA/Top AA and Bottom AA/A Divisions.

I know some will say we need 1 classification. But, that will do nothing to encourage more participation and it is not a viable option. One classification would discourage more participation.

This was the original topic for this post (not that the rest of the discussion hasn't been interesting, it has just strayed from the original premise).
Let's clarify some facts as follows:
There was in 2018-19 the following breakdown between AAA/AA/A
29 AAA wrestling teams = 32% of the teams in the state
40 AA wrestling teams = 44% of the teams in the state
22 A wrestling teams = 24% of the teams in the state

However, the actual number of wrestlers participating in the regionals was as follows:
AAA = 303 wrestlers, or 36% of all the wrestlers in the state
AA/A = 543 wrestlers, or 64% of all the wrestlers in the state
This means that the average for AAA was 10.4 (out of 14) wrestlers per team, while the average for AA/A was only 8.8 (out of 14) wrestlers per team, or barely more than half a team.
So, these are the real facts that have to be dealt with when suggesting any "changes" and not those originally stated.

With this information let's return to the original premise, which seemed to be making it more "fair" for A teams. This may have been primarily directed towards competing for a "true" A State team champion. Obviously, the only possible way to actually find a "true" A champion is to have only the A teams competing against each other. However, the above numbers show that this is totally impractical because of the low numbers actually participating in A. Indeed, if one were to "fairly" shift the team numbers, then the 8 smallest AA teams would need to move down to A and would include the following teams: Poca/Clay County/Oak Glen/Wyoming East/James Monroe/River View/Petersburg/Man. So, all the A teams need to welcome Oak Glen and Petersburg to the party. Another unfortunate issue would be that the competition would be so watered down on an individual basis that the meaningfulness of being an individual State Champion (in the A portion) would significantly take a hit. The wrestler in A would know this. The other thought, that of dividing the state into 2 groups would involve moving the largest 18 AA schools in with AAA (which obviously is never going to happen). Even if this was to be done, it would essentially mean removing the A state championship team designation altogether and so no A team would likely ever be a Team State Champion ever again anyway. Point is, none of the original suggestions really make any practical sense once the actual facts of the situation are examined. Thus it seems that the best way to find the individual A State Team champion is already in place and is likely as accurate as a separate tournament. On an individual basis, it doesn't matter whether one is AAA, AA, or A. Put in the work and you'll reap what you sow. I can assure you that it is not easier for the wrestlers in AAA to reach the podium compared to the challenge faced by those in AA/A because of the number of teams or wrestlers involved. In fact it is quite the opposite. If you're a wrestler in A, your best bet for your school is to work hard to get your friends interested in the sport. Being relentless with that and relentless in your practice is the only way for you and your school to get the hardware. And that is how participation really starts, wanting to do something with your peers and friends in school. Like most things in life, if you're only doing it for the accolades, you'll soon quit doing it. That's sort of what wrestling taught me.

[mscoach64]

Can we now do something about how the State Tournament is divided? We have 32 AAA teams now and the rest are AA or A. That means 25% (or so) of the wrestlers are in AAA and the rest are in AA/A. Plus, we now have AA Champs and A Champs. But, a A wrestler can be knocked out of the tournament by the AA wrestler and vice versa.

We either need:

1. AAA/AA/A Divisions
2. AAA/Top AA and Bottom AA/A Divisions.

I know some will say we need 1 classification. But, that will do nothing to encourage more participation and it is not a viable option. One classification would discourage more participation.

This was the original topic for this post (not that the rest of the discussion hasn't been interesting, it has just strayed from the original premise).
Let's clarify some facts as follows:
There was in 2018-19 the following breakdown between AAA/AA/A
29 AAA wrestling teams = 32% of the teams in the state
40 AA wrestling teams = 44% of the teams in the state
22 A wrestling teams = 24% of the teams in the state

However, the actual number of wrestlers participating in the regionals was as follows:
AAA = 303 wrestlers, or 36% of all the wrestlers in the state
AA/A = 543 wrestlers, or 64% of all the wrestlers in the state
This means that the average for AAA was 10.4 (out of 14) wrestlers per team, while the average for AA/A was only 8.8 (out of 14) wrestlers per team, or barely more than half a team.
So, these are the real facts that have to be dealt with when suggesting any "changes" and not those originally stated.

With this information let's return to the original premise, which seemed to be making it more "fair" for A teams. This may have been primarily directed towards competing for a "true" A State team champion. Obviously, the only possible way to actually find a "true" A champion is to have only the A teams competing against each other. However, the above numbers show that this is totally impractical because of the low numbers actually participating in A. Indeed, if one were to "fairly" shift the team numbers, then the 8 smallest AA teams would need to move down to A and would include the following teams: Poca/Clay County/Oak Glen/Wyoming East/James Monroe/River View/Petersburg/Man. So, all the A teams need to welcome Oak Glen and Petersburg to the party. Another unfortunate issue would be that the competition would be so watered down on an individual basis that the meaningfulness of being an individual State Champion (in the A portion) would significantly take a hit. The wrestler in A would know this. The other thought, that of dividing the state into 2 groups would involve moving the largest 18 AA schools in with AAA (which obviously is never going to happen). Even if this was to be done, it would essentially mean removing the A state championship team designation altogether and so no A team would likely ever be a Team State Champion ever again anyway. Point is, none of the original suggestions really make any practical sense once the actual facts of the situation are examined. Thus it seems that the best way to find the individual A State Team champion is already in place and is likely as accurate as a separate tournament. On an individual basis, it doesn't matter whether one is AAA, AA, or A. Put in the work and you'll reap what you sow. I can assure you that it is not easier for the wrestlers in AAA to reach the podium compared to the challenge faced by those in AA/A because of the number of teams or wrestlers involved. In fact it is quite the opposite. If you're a wrestler in A, your best bet for your school is to work hard to get your friends interested in the sport. Being relentless with that and relentless in your practice is the only way for you and your school to get the hardware. And that is how participation really starts, wanting to do something with your peers and friends in school. Like most things in life, if you're only doing it for the accolades, you'll soon quit doing it. That's sort of what wrestling taught me.

you mean like the currently AAA individual state champion would feel?

[aacoach32]

I agree with mscoach. It needs changed.

[csmith11]

as someone stated if correct there is only 22 single a schools. how can you argue that you need your own division with that. you mind as well just move to south Carolina where they have 4 divisions and struggle to send 8 to the state tournament. you grow the sport by teaching the core values and life lessons that wrestling provides. to me it sounds like the coaches that need there to be a single a only division to grow the sport for their program needs to reevaluate their coaching.

[mscoach64]

29 AAA vs 59 AA/A teams. And, rumors of a few more AA/A teams being added. What is the argument again? Someone said we might as well water it down with 22 A teams.....well, there are 29 AAA teams as it stands in West Virginia

[csmith11]

i hate only seeing 29 aaa teams as well. i personally like the ovac system. another option is for sports that dont have 3 classifications like wrestling instead of calling it aaa and aa/a we call it aa and a and split it right down the middle. that would leave the top 44 in the new aa and 44 in a. throwing these schools into the big school division with current aaa teams.
Lincoln County 871
Winfield 861
Oak Hill 851
Shady Spring 849
Elkins 833
Fairmont Senior 811
Robert C. Byrd 780
North Marion 775
Herbert Hoover 770
Bridgeport 762
Nitro 759
Lewis County 757
Logan 757
Point Pleasant 751
East Fairmont 746

[KSRefBP]

Not to jump in and pick a side...but I have not seen this mentioned.

Either this year or next year (no clue), basketball in WV is going to a 4 class format for a trial run. Urban/Rural or something like that. For sake of argument, we will call it 4A, 3A, 2A, 1A. Perhaps what could come of that, should it prove to be successful and ultimately expanded to all sports, is that in the sport of wrestling, it might end up with a combined 4A/3A on one side and 2A/1A on the other side when it comes to the regionals and state tournament. That has potential to balance things out in terms of numbers and still allows for the smaller schools to compete on a team level when battling for team awards.

You can Google it and find the breakdown of where each school falls during the trial run. It's actually interesting, intriguing, frustrating (for some), and balanced in terms of number of schools in each division.

Food for thought. Just saying.

Brian

PS, if anyone is paying attention. We need officials in a bad way all across the state. As much as we want numbers to grow in the wrestling rooms, we also need the numbers to grow for the guys (gals?) in grey (stripes?). You don't have to relive your days on the mat by signing up for an open tournament and trying to prove you still got it. Relive them by becoming an official, make decent pay, and give back to the sport and help it survive.

[KDunbar]

Can we now do something about how the State Tournament is divided? We have 32 AAA teams now and the rest are AA or A. That means 25% (or so) of the wrestlers are in AAA and the rest are in AA/A. Plus, we now have AA Champs and A Champs. But, a A wrestler can be knocked out of the tournament by the AA wrestler and vice versa.

We either need:

1. AAA/AA/A Divisions
2. AAA/Top AA and Bottom AA/A Divisions.

I know some will say we need 1 classification. But, that will do nothing to encourage more participation and it is not a viable option. One classification would discourage more participation.

This was the original topic for this post (not that the rest of the discussion hasn't been interesting, it has just strayed from the original premise).
Let's clarify some facts as follows:
There was in 2018-19 the following breakdown between AAA/AA/A
29 AAA wrestling teams = 32% of the teams in the state
40 AA wrestling teams = 44% of the teams in the state
22 A wrestling teams = 24% of the teams in the state

However, the actual number of wrestlers participating in the regionals was as follows:
AAA = 303 wrestlers, or 36% of all the wrestlers in the state
AA/A = 543 wrestlers, or 64% of all the wrestlers in the state
This means that the average for AAA was 10.4 (out of 14) wrestlers per team, while the average for AA/A was only 8.8 (out of 14) wrestlers per team, or barely more than half a team.
So, these are the real facts that have to be dealt with when suggesting any "changes" and not those originally stated.

With this information let's return to the original premise, which seemed to be making it more "fair" for A teams. This may have been primarily directed towards competing for a "true" A State team champion. Obviously, the only possible way to actually find a "true" A champion is to have only the A teams competing against each other. However, the above numbers show that this is totally impractical because of the low numbers actually participating in A. Indeed, if one were to "fairly" shift the team numbers, then the 8 smallest AA teams would need to move down to A and would include the following teams: Poca/Clay County/Oak Glen/Wyoming East/James Monroe/River View/Petersburg/Man. So, all the A teams need to welcome Oak Glen and Petersburg to the party. Another unfortunate issue would be that the competition would be so watered down on an individual basis that the meaningfulness of being an individual State Champion (in the A portion) would significantly take a hit. The wrestler in A would know this. The other thought, that of dividing the state into 2 groups would involve moving the largest 18 AA schools in with AAA (which obviously is never going to happen). Even if this was to be done, it would essentially mean removing the A state championship team designation altogether and so no A team would likely ever be a Team State Champion ever again anyway. Point is, none of the original suggestions really make any practical sense once the actual facts of the situation are examined. Thus it seems that the best way to find the individual A State Team champion is already in place and is likely as accurate as a separate tournament. On an individual basis, it doesn't matter whether one is AAA, AA, or A. Put in the work and you'll reap what you sow. I can assure you that it is not easier for the wrestlers in AAA to reach the podium compared to the challenge faced by those in AA/A because of the number of teams or wrestlers involved. In fact it is quite the opposite. If you're a wrestler in A, your best bet for your school is to work hard to get your friends interested in the sport. Being relentless with that and relentless in your practice is the only way for you and your school to get the hardware. And that is how participation really starts, wanting to do something with your peers and friends in school. Like most things in life, if you're only doing it for the accolades, you'll soon quit doing it. That's sort of what wrestling taught me.

you mean like the currently AAA individual state champion would feel?

After dwelling on this overnight, I thought about what I wrote and that it might have sounded too harsh. Thankfully, the above response was written and now I don't need to worry. I was merely referring to the amount of wrestlers that would be vying for the A individual title, and the likely "stiffness" of the total competition. Now someone has gone and implied how meaningless and uncompetitive the current AAA individual state wrestling champions should feel about their titles. That just ain't right in my way of thinking. I think what CSmith11 wrote echoed my opinion. If you are a wrestling coach, either high school or ms, and you just want to make it easy to get a state title then a reevaluation of one's coaching is indeed likely in order. Finally, again we are dealing with misleading statements when there is an attempt to compare the numbers 22 A as being remotely close to 29 AAA. That would be comparing 300 battle-tested wrestlers with maybe 100 in the A ranks. Obviously, if one wants to keep on thinking in this fashion then life will never be fair. What's really not fair is that all those AAA kid's parents had to live where the poor wrestlers had to deal with all that competition just within their own school. Now that's harsh.

[mscoach64]

This was the original topic for this post (not that the rest of the discussion hasn't been interesting, it has just strayed from the original premise).
Let's clarify some facts as follows:
There was in 2018-19 the following breakdown between AAA/AA/A
29 AAA wrestling teams = 32% of the teams in the state
40 AA wrestling teams = 44% of the teams in the state
22 A wrestling teams = 24% of the teams in the state

However, the actual number of wrestlers participating in the regionals was as follows:
AAA = 303 wrestlers, or 36% of all the wrestlers in the state
AA/A = 543 wrestlers, or 64% of all the wrestlers in the state
This means that the average for AAA was 10.4 (out of 14) wrestlers per team, while the average for AA/A was only 8.8 (out of 14) wrestlers per team, or barely more than half a team.
So, these are the real facts that have to be dealt with when suggesting any "changes" and not those originally stated.

With this information let's return to the original premise, which seemed to be making it more "fair" for A teams. This may have been primarily directed towards competing for a "true" A State team champion. Obviously, the only possible way to actually find a "true" A champion is to have only the A teams competing against each other. However, the above numbers show that this is totally impractical because of the low numbers actually participating in A. Indeed, if one were to "fairly" shift the team numbers, then the 8 smallest AA teams would need to move down to A and would include the following teams: Poca/Clay County/Oak Glen/Wyoming East/James Monroe/River View/Petersburg/Man. So, all the A teams need to welcome Oak Glen and Petersburg to the party. Another unfortunate issue would be that the competition would be so watered down on an individual basis that the meaningfulness of being an individual State Champion (in the A portion) would significantly take a hit. The wrestler in A would know this. The other thought, that of dividing the state into 2 groups would involve moving the largest 18 AA schools in with AAA (which obviously is never going to happen). Even if this was to be done, it would essentially mean removing the A state championship team designation altogether and so no A team would likely ever be a Team State Champion ever again anyway. Point is, none of the original suggestions really make any practical sense once the actual facts of the situation are examined. Thus it seems that the best way to find the individual A State Team champion is already in place and is likely as accurate as a separate tournament. On an individual basis, it doesn't matter whether one is AAA, AA, or A. Put in the work and you'll reap what you sow. I can assure you that it is not easier for the wrestlers in AAA to reach the podium compared to the challenge faced by those in AA/A because of the number of teams or wrestlers involved. In fact it is quite the opposite. If you're a wrestler in A, your best bet for your school is to work hard to get your friends interested in the sport. Being relentless with that and relentless in your practice is the only way for you and your school to get the hardware. And that is how participation really starts, wanting to do something with your peers and friends in school. Like most things in life, if you're only doing it for the accolades, you'll soon quit doing it. That's sort of what wrestling taught me.

you mean like the currently AAA individual state champion would feel?

After dwelling on this overnight, I thought about what I wrote and that it might have sounded too harsh. Thankfully, the above response was written and now I don't need to worry. I was merely referring to the amount of wrestlers that would be vying for the A individual title, and the likely "stiffness" of the total competition. Now someone has gone and implied how meaningless and uncompetitive the current AAA individual state wrestling champions should feel about their titles. That just ain't right in my way of thinking. I think what CSmith11 wrote echoed my opinion. If you are a wrestling coach, either high school or ms, and you just want to make it easy to get a state title then a reevaluation of one's coaching is indeed likely in order. Finally, again we are dealing with misleading statements when there is an attempt to compare the numbers 22 A as being remotely close to 29 AAA. That would be comparing 300 battle-tested wrestlers with maybe 100 in the A ranks. Obviously, if one wants to keep on thinking in this fashion then life will never be fair. What's really not fair is that all those AAA kid's parents had to live where the poor wrestlers had to deal with all that competition just within their own school. Now that's harsh.

LOL....thats funny right there. Anyway, with a quick check of last years participants in the state tournament: The AA/A division had 6 wrestlers to have a record below .500 and 1 wrestler with a kid whose record was exactly .500. In comparison, the AAA division had 26 participants whose record was below .500 and 1 wrestler whose record was exactly .500.

Also, to clarify, my response was not to disparage anything that a AAA wrestler had/has accomplished. My response was to point out the fact that the amount of schools participating in the 2 divisions is without a doubt uneven. Whereas, your response was intended to disparage the achievement of a wrestler and how they would feel if they won a single A title.

Sticking to the point of the entire conversation; Wirt County or Greenbrier West and all other single A teams compete with AA wrestlers in their division. Those teams can have a AA wrestler to defeat their kid within the confines of the bracket (and it works the same for a AA team like Point or Oak Glen or Indy). However, they each can be awarded the team title as AA champions or A champions. How is that remotely fair in the confines of the tournament these schools compete within?

There was a very accomplished wrestler (although apparently not very battled tested in your opinion) by the name of Kris Wilson from Fayetteville HS that had a 43-13 record that did not make the state tournament. In his weight class, there were 3 AA wrestlers and only 1 single A wrestler that made the states. Now, I realize that Fayetteville was not in contention for a A state championship, but what if this would have been an accomplished wrestler from Wirt Co or Greenbrier West who didn't even make the tournament. Wouldn't Wirt or GW benefited by having such a wrestler at the tourney as they were trying to win a state title? I'm sure it would have been an easy find to use as an example for a AA wrestling team. Pallestrini and Honaker may have helped Fayetteville as they would have tried to place as high as they could in the single A division.

In closing, I certainly apologize if this response seems a bit "harsh" as you have said. But, it is your total dismissive attitude that I use my harshness to combat. I was merely comparing the number of AAA teams to number of A teams to show that your point was out of bounds when you claimed a A wrestler would feel as if they had less of an accomplishment. Then, you followed that up with questioning if "one's coaching was in order"....well, that my friend, is quite harsh on your behalf.

[KDunbar]

[list=][/list]

you mean like the currently AAA individual state champion would feel?

After dwelling on this overnight, I thought about what I wrote and that it might have sounded too harsh. Thankfully, the above response was written and now I don't need to worry. I was merely referring to the amount of wrestlers that would be vying for the A individual title, and the likely "stiffness" of the total competition. Now someone has gone and implied how meaningless and uncompetitive the current AAA individual state wrestling champions should feel about their titles. That just ain't right in my way of thinking. I think what CSmith11 wrote echoed my opinion. If you are a wrestling coach, either high school or ms, and you just want to make it easy to get a state title then a reevaluation of one's coaching is indeed likely in order. Finally, again we are dealing with misleading statements when there is an attempt to compare the numbers 22 A as being remotely close to 29 AAA. That would be comparing 300 battle-tested wrestlers with maybe 100 in the A ranks. Obviously, if one wants to keep on thinking in this fashion then life will never be fair. What's really not fair is that all those AAA kid's parents had to live where the poor wrestlers had to deal with all that competition just within their own school. Now that's harsh.

LOL....thats funny right there. Anyway, with a quick check of last years participants in the state tournament: The AA/A division had 6 wrestlers to have a record below .500 and 1 wrestler with a kid whose record was exactly .500. In comparison, the AAA division had 26 participants whose record was below .500 and 1 wrestler whose record was exactly .500.

Also, to clarify, my response was not to disparage anything that a AAA wrestler had/has accomplished. My response was to point out the fact that the amount of schools participating in the 2 divisions is without a doubt uneven. Whereas, your response was intended to disparage the achievement of a wrestler and how they would feel if they won a single A title.

Sticking to the point of the entire conversation; Wirt County or Greenbrier West and all other single A teams compete with AA wrestlers in their division. Those teams can have a AA wrestler to defeat their kid within the confines of the bracket (and it works the same for a AA team like Point or Oak Glen or Indy). However, they each can be awarded the team title as AA champions or A champions. How is that remotely fair in the confines of the tournament these schools compete within?

There was a very accomplished wrestler (although apparently not very battled tested in your opinion) by the name of Kris Wilson from Fayetteville HS that had a 43-13 record that did not make the state tournament. In his weight class, there were 3 AA wrestlers and only 1 single A wrestler that made the states. Now, I realize that Fayetteville was not in contention for a A state championship, but what if this would have been an accomplished wrestler from Wirt Co or Greenbrier West who didn't even make the tournament. Wouldn't Wirt or GW benefited by having such a wrestler at the tourney as they were trying to win a state title? I'm sure it would have been an easy find to use as an example for a AA wrestling team. Pallestrini and Honaker may have helped Fayetteville as they would have tried to place as high as they could in the single A division.

In closing, I certainly apologize if this response seems a bit "harsh" as you have said. But, it is your total dismissive attitude that I use my harshness to combat. I was merely comparing the number of AAA teams to number of A teams to show that your point was out of bounds when you claimed a A wrestler would feel as if they had less of an accomplishment. Then, you followed that up with questioning if "one's coaching was in order"....well, that my friend, is quite harsh on your behalf.

First of all, I'm not trying to make this personal. Second of all, I'm way too old to try and "win" an argument with an anonymous stranger on social media. However, just because you say something on here doesn't mean you are actually conveying the truth or making accurate assessments. What you are interpreting as "dismissive" I would call being practical, reasonable, and actually thinking about what I'm saying. I am rarely, if ever, dismissive of a wrestler. I am usually dismissive of (looking for not too harsh of a word) someone talking without actually looking at the facts of what they are talking about. I have agreed, that the only true "fair" way to determine the A state team champion would be to separate the A teams into their own regionals and state tournament. However, what I'm also saying is, does the end justify the means. I will repeat again that to make any kind of comparison with the situation in AAA with A makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Not because AAA is better, but because they are completely different and the numbers 29 AAA schools and 22 A schools are inconsequential numbers. You apparently haven't looked at what you are talking about doing.

Here's what would happen if we did what you are saying:

Region 1 A schools last year: 106 lb weight class... no wrestlers... you'd be sending 4 byes to the states
113 lb weight class...2 wrestlers.... one with a record of 11-18 and the other with 11-14
120 lb weight class...3 wrestlers.... 2 very good wrestlers and the third with a record of 12-15
126 lb weight class...5 wrestlers....1 very good wrestler.. records of the other 4 were 17-15, 6-7, 12-16, 5-24
That's 16 going to the state tournament and out of that 7 byes and 5 losing records.....
Do you finally see what I'm talking about. If you don't like the word watered down, then pick the one you want. I just think that the good wrestlers in A would want a state title against better competition in general and not have this kind of tournament just so some team might finish in 7th place rather than 22nd. If you don't get it, I don't no what more to say.

[baxter841]

Consider trying - If the tournaments was split into 3 classes or even the A/AA, AA/AAA it may actually increase the participation with time. Look at another sport. Maybe track. At some point the wvssac went to 3 classes. With time the single A division has gotten really competitive. It didn't happen instantly, but it did happen. Now in wrestling, the same thing could happen.
My feeling is the most of the really great programs or great individuals don't really understand or want to look at from this perspective. I can see what you are saying about 1 class. Thats an honor to win! I get that!!
Now try and see what I am saying about 3 classes. With time participation and quality would increase on the small school level!
If the wvssac tried a 4 year trial and it did not show an increase in participation I will eat my words, but we won't know unless given the opportunity.
Next year is the time to start the trial - with the AAs moving down that have wrestling- some moving up. Good luck everyone on the upcoming season!

[aacoach32]

Last night in the Backyard Brawl, WVU started four wrestlers who wrestled high school in WV. All four of them were from the AA/A class.

[TheBoxer]

The power of the forum!

We did it!!!

The 2021 State Tournament will 100% have some of the largest current AA teams added. Oak Hill, Bridgeport and Lincoln will all be in the AAA regions and state tournament.

This is such a huge accomplishment I hear it may even have an impact on the regional alignment.

Good work everyone! high-fives all the way around.


In all seriousness Reclassification numbers were announced a couple weeks ago. So everything talked about in this thread is old data. Including the correct count of A wrestlers. Since some schools will also be moving from AA to A.

Additionally Basketball will be running a trial of a 4 class system. If that is then approved it will completely overhaul the state tournament structure. The question will then be if there are AAAA/AAA and a AA/A tournaments or maybe AAAA and AAA and AA/A in 3 separate tournaments? So many changes to come. cant wait to see where it goes.

[KDunbar]

Consider trying - If the tournaments was split into 3 classes or even the A/AA, AA/AAA it may actually increase the participation with time. Look at another sport. Maybe track. At some point the wvssac went to 3 classes. With time the single A division has gotten really competitive. It didn't happen instantly, but it did happen. Now in wrestling, the same thing could happen.
My feeling is the most of the really great programs or great individuals don't really understand or want to look at from this perspective. I can see what you are saying about 1 class. Thats an honor to win! I get that!!
Now try and see what I am saying about 3 classes. With time participation and quality would increase on the small school level!
If the wvssac tried a 4 year trial and it did not show an increase in participation I will eat my words, but we won't know unless given the opportunity.
Next year is the time to start the trial - with the AAs moving down that have wrestling- some moving up. Good luck everyone on the upcoming season!

I understand the above idea. As a predominantly AAA person, I don't really care how they run the AA and A portion. I don't care if they add it to AAA. I do want what is best for the kids and for wrestling as a whole. I get what you said above, but I'm just not sure that making it easier will actually in the long run make it better for both. I just took exception to the concept that AAA had it easy, the implied "unfairness" of the situation, and the lack of understanding that the stand alone A tournament was going to create a situation massively worse than the "apparent" sham that the AAA state tournament had become.

I'm just curious as to how moving single A in track to a division by itself produced more and faster athletes at those schools. I'm guessing it just became more competitive in the relay events where numbers are needed and in the team scoring aspect between the A schools. Did they actually get more and faster athletes somehow?

I will admit that, although I am not one the great individuals you alluded to, I have always had a preference for the "little fish in the big pond" concept as opposed to the" big fish in the little pond" situation. As for increasing participation, I actually find it somewhat difficult to understand how being able to be a starter on your school's athletic team in any sport is not enough incentive to participate. I guess times have changed. Or is it that the wrestler who goes out there and isn't very good but starts due to a lack of competition on his school team gets all the wrong signals from his teammates, coaches, classmates, family, and community as a whole. I think I have seen this happen many, many times over the years. As I have said on posts before, I watch wrestling to see the kids try doing what is one of the hardest things I personally have ever tried to do. They aren't wrestling for me and owe me nothing. As long as they try (and don't misbehave) they have my support.