Memo from Bill Archer Regarding Seeding the State Tournament

[admin]

For the record-as I have stated many times, wrestling in West Virginia did not begin when you became interested.
The first time I was on the rules committee 1973, if they have the notes from the meeting they would tell u that I brought up seeding the state tournament (1973).
It makes no sense to me to seed WSAZ
(Sometimes with 64 man brackets)(seeding sometimes up to 14 seeds a weight class) OVAC, Winners Choice, Regionals and then not seed the state.
The problem is that in the early 70’s and 80’s there were very few if any states that did it.
Our biggest problem at that time was the tremendous amount of good teams in region I.The next year John Marshall won the state when at least one or two runner ups (who would not have been there if u only had the champion come).
I have always felt wrestling will grow if u increase the number of people wrestling. Many of u don’t know that the first time we had the state in Huntington we did not use the whole civic center.
When u come this year, look up to the ceiling and u will see a petition that can be pulled out.
We used that part of the building to have the tournament.
It wasn’t full.
It becomes a bigger deal when the team score is going to be close.
The often quoted team score with 4 teams really close HHS had 2 3rd and 4th matches with leading teams. We won both, I was loved and hated by the 4 schools, something that has continued through my many years as tournament
Director.
I finally had them agreeing to try seeding in then Covid showed up and screwed up one of the criteria.
One of the states that now kind of seeds is Ohio is one of our great wrestling states.
I called and their wrestling guy he sent me exactly what they do.
The coaches committee was discussing it at a Break at WSAZ Tournament. I gave them all a copy at the coaches meeting.
I look for a report at the meeting a very smart and famous wrestling family in West Virginia is handing the committee.
If a dr. Can’t do it who can.
This is not a secret or underground message,it is sent by Bill Archer.
If u want to come down and talk I can tell u a lot of stories.
Ex-They didn’t have any type of seeding in the Olympics as far as I know until the late 1990s.
It was a blind draw, if u were the 3rd best wrestler u could draw 1 and 2 in the first two matches and be out by black marks after only two matches.
Americans always question the pre draw by the Russians.
Don’t miss the state tournament, the people that are telling u it is going to be close are right.
I have not done a rating after the regions but there probably 4 to 6 teams that have a shot.
Last point those who say just seed the first two.
How does that make 184 any fairer.

[Campion]

Thanks for the background. This will be a great state tournament, again, this year! Thanks for the years of hard work! Looking forward to it!

I also agree that there are many weight classes like 184 (182) where there are not clear 1 and 2 above all others. There are a few perceived 1 and all others… but that is why we wrestle. I support the Pill

Seeding after regionals would not be as easy as some think. The best wrestler on each day will prevail, anyway!

[Bearhugger]

Thanks for the background. This will be a great state tournament, again, this year! Thanks for the years of hard work! Looking forward to it!

I also agree that there are many weight classes like 184 (182) where there are not clear 1 and 2 above all others. There are a few perceived 1 and all others… but that is why we wrestle. I support the Pill

Seeding after regionals would not be as easy as some think. The best wrestler on each day will prevail, anyway!

Giompalo is the clear #1 today. His only WV AAA loss is to Edwards. He defeated Edwards in the regional tournament. Edwards lost a one point match to Nixon that has the waters a little muddy. The pill for 182 is one of the least that needs to be looked at. Nixon and Edwards could hit each other in the quarters. That will settle things. Edwards and Giompalo could meet in the finals. That could settle things too.

Of course there are other good wrestlers "that on any given day" could knock one of these guys off.

[J.W.]

Not that I care as much since I have moved from WV, but I decided to test how long it would take to dig up info without WV having a standard for officially entering all matches per wrestler prior to regions entry, which would help greatly.

But the 182 that we speak of if your starting order was State placing from previous year followed by record for the regional champions only instead of pill to get the draw would be

Edge, Nixon, Giompalo, Herndon.

Then you look at head to heads. Giompalo defeated Edge 2x, so he moves ahead.

Common opponents: Edge win over Carnes, Carnes over Herndon.

Giompalo over Taylor
Taylor over Nixon.

So with what was earned during the season is

1. Giompalo
2. Edge
3. Nixon
4. Herndon

That was 7 minutes of research for one person with a broken stats system.

A committee splitting weight classes, with a standard input, and an agreed upon criteria would take roughly 2 hours to seed region champions, and then auto fill based the normal pill entry.

But people would still argue so is it really worth it at the end. Probably not.

Disclaimer: I don't live in WV anymore, there may be other results that are not published, but this was a 7 minute quick scan to see how it would split.

[Doyablameme?]

It is never gonna meet everyone’s definition of fair. Thus maybe less whining is needed.

[pensmat]

Like Bearhugger has mentioned before, if more coaches participated in the voting of individual ranks, there could be a clear(er) path to seeding. If seeds are heavily persuaded by coaches' votes, it is basically a seeding meeting that lasts all year. If ranks become more important, you will see a lot more coaches chiming in with head-to-head or common opponent scenarios that could paint a more clear bracket for the state tourney. I'm not saying individual rankings should determine the state tournament seeds, but if coaches know that the committee will consider rankings as a tool of sorts, it could be more useful.
In any big change, you need small changes first. Perhaps a TRUE coaches poll ranking system should be implemented. Currently it is more of a "if you want to vote." This isn't to say that all the work Jenny does is meaningless, we all know how hard she works. Coaches just don't have the time or make the time to vote on rankings when the pill determines your line in the end. If rankings could mean more for seeds at states, you can bet your sweet *** the votes will pour in.
As far as how to vote, I'm sure there are plenty of ideas, but quarterly surveys sent to coaches with a simple click to vote preceded by posted results and discussions on the forum for why Jo Schmo should be ranked #whatever wouldn't be a very difficult system to make work. This is a very broad example, but you get the point.
We don't need to be like every other state, we can be better. We are allowed to be innovative and have a "better" system.

[mike.carman]

Not that I care as much since I have moved from WV, but I decided to test how long it would take to dig up info without WV having a standard for officially entering all matches per wrestler prior to regions entry, which would help greatly.

But the 182 that we speak of if your starting order was State placing from previous year followed by record for the regional champions only instead of pill to get the draw would be

Edge, Nixon, Giompalo, Herndon.

Then you look at head to heads. Giompalo defeated Edge 2x, so he moves ahead.

Common opponents: Edge win over Carnes, Carnes over Herndon.

Giompalo over Taylor
Taylor over Nixon.

So with what was earned during the season is

1. Giompalo
2. Edge
3. Nixon
4. Herndon

That was 7 minutes of research for one person with a broken stats system.

A committee splitting weight classes, with a standard input, and an agreed upon criteria would take roughly 2 hours to seed region champions, and then auto fill based the normal pill entry.

But people would still argue so is it really worth it at the end. Probably not.

Disclaimer: I don't live in WV anymore, there may be other results that are not published, but this was a 7 minute quick scan to see how it would split.

I love this. Great way to explain it.

[Campion]

Like Bearhugger has mentioned before, if more coaches participated in the voting of individual ranks, there could be a clear(er) path to seeding. If seeds are heavily persuaded by coaches' votes, it is basically a seeding meeting that lasts all year. If ranks become more important, you will see a lot more coaches chiming in with head-to-head or common opponent scenarios that could paint a more clear bracket for the state tourney. I'm not saying individual rankings should determine the state tournament seeds, but if coaches know that the committee will consider rankings as a tool of sorts, it could be more useful.
In any big change, you need small changes first. Perhaps a TRUE coaches poll ranking system should be implemented. Currently it is more of a "if you want to vote." This isn't to say that all the work Jenny does is meaningless, we all know how hard she works. Coaches just don't have the time or make the time to vote on rankings when the pill determines your line in the end. If rankings could mean more for seeds at states, you can bet your sweet *** the votes will pour in.
As far as how to vote, I'm sure there are plenty of ideas, but quarterly surveys sent to coaches with a simple click to vote preceded by posted results and discussions on the forum for why Jo Schmo should be ranked #whatever wouldn't be a very difficult system to make work. This is a very broad example, but you get the point.
We don't need to be like every other state, we can be better. We are allowed to be innovative and have a "better" system.

Exactly. Couldn’t agree more…

[tmsbrown]

I will apologize for the extremely long post (I do not post on here often) – but here are my 2 cents about a small part of this “discussion”. As many of you know, I have run tournaments across the state for nearly 20 years. Over that time, I have made some great relationships with a lot of great folks that are absolutely doing what is right and necessary to grow our sport and to improve their team. I have made the assumption that the vast majority of our coaches and decision makers are in this great category. I truly believe that the foundation of seeding the state tournament requires appropriate, and accurate information – specifically the records. Years ago when I had more time and more results were posted on this site, I would check records of kids entering regionals that I was paid to run. The majority of times, it was easy to verify that most of the records were pretty much accurate. However, there are many times when I simply could not find how a kid would enter the regional tournament with a 25-5 record when I could not see their name on hardly any of their results. Or, that kid was entered into a tournament a week or two prior to regionals with a vastly different record. I used to “call out” coaches through email or a personal phone call prior to the regional seeding meeting to make sure the record they submitted was accurate and that it was not a “mistake”. I never – not once – had a coach say - -oh yeah, you are right – that kid did not wrestle 30 matches. They always assure me that they are accurate and question why I would pick on them. My point with all of this is that IF we want to seed the state tournament – we need to require coaches to submit varsity results on a specific website (something like track wrestling). The results need to be posted to that particular site within 48 hours of the conclusion of the tournament/match. At that point, they should be required to submit that information to the regional tournament director PRIOR to the seeding meeting along with their WVSSAC Form 17. Which that regional director would then share with all coaches. Yes, I know that this still leaves an avenue for someone to inflate a record – but it is much easier to verify a varsity record if everyone is looking at the same page for ALL kids entered into a weight class at a regional seeding meeting. I also understand that winning percentage is supposed to play a small role in regional seeding – but I find that more often than not, we end up with winning percentage as a deciding factor on many of our seeds – specifically, seeds 3, 4, 5 and 6 – which could absolutely help or put the screws to a kid if they are seeded incorrectly.
I guess I am a lot like the great Coach Bill Archer – I have witnessed years when this seeding topic takes over this forum – but I have also seen years when it works out for the most part with the pill that is drawn. I have been around WV wrestling for years – and have said it many times – I personally would much rather watch the semifinal round of the state tournament more so than the finals. I think it is hard to duplicate the atmosphere of kids getting that win to get into the finals – and then on the other side of the arena, with the kids in the consolation rounds fighting to get that last win in order to place in the top 6. With that said, it probably would be the best to seed the tournament if we want the actual top 2 wrestling on Saturday night – we just need to make sure we take the steps to get accurate, information in a timely manner.
PS – I mentioned regional seeding meetings several times in this post – we also need to start discussing requiring ALL regions to have their seeding meeting on the same day/time with the knowledge that once you are entered into the regional at a specific weight class, you cannot change your weight class. This entire situation where some regions wait until very late in the week to seed – just gives them an advantage of moving their kids that the other teams that have their seeding meetings in a timely manner do not get.

[Bearhugger]

Not that I care as much since I have moved from WV, but I decided to test how long it would take to dig up info without WV having a standard for officially entering all matches per wrestler prior to regions entry, which would help greatly.

But the 182 that we speak of if your starting order was State placing from previous year followed by record for the regional champions only instead of pill to get the draw would be

Edge, Nixon, Giompalo, Herndon.

Then you look at head to heads. Giompalo defeated Edge 2x, so he moves ahead.

Common opponents: Edge win over Carnes, Carnes over Herndon.

Giompalo over Taylor
Taylor over Nixon.

So with what was earned during the season is

1. Giompalo
2. Edge
3. Nixon
4. Herndon

That was 7 minutes of research for one person with a broken stats system.

A committee splitting weight classes, with a standard input, and an agreed upon criteria would take roughly 2 hours to seed region champions, and then auto fill based the normal pill entry.

But people would still argue so is it really worth it at the end. Probably not.

Disclaimer: I don't live in WV anymore, there may be other results that are not published, but this was a 7 minute quick scan to see how it would split.

JW, I have recently had discussions with two different coaches about seeding meetings in general. One of these coaches is a former state champion so he has "credibility" to "talk" about wrestling. In both conversations, it sounds like a big problem is weakness in the conductor of the seeding meeting.

If the criteria is documented and known in advance, and the seeding meeting conductor stands firm, there shouldn't be much arguing.

Here is the problem as I have heard countless times. People watch most of these kids beat on each other from age 4 to 16. Coaches want to argue against criteria based on history. Or it could be based on a match that happened 4 years ago.

The man running the seeding meeting needs to be more firm in his duties. State "per the criteria, Wrestler B is the #3 seed". We are moving on". Then move on.

Referees can eject coaches from arenas. Why can't the seeding meeting man in charge eject a ridiculous coach that is not smart enough to learn and understand the predetermined criteria?

If the criteria is outdated or flawed, why can't it be modified for next season? It doesn't take 2 years to fix stuff like this.

[pensmat]

All great topics and arguments for and against the pill.
One more bit of my own opinion I'd like to add concerns the "exciting matches." Often OUR opinions of exciting wrestling matches varies between semis and finals. On the opposite end of the spectrum as a wrestler, making the finals is and should be the ultimate goal. While it might be great for the fans to watch the excitement unfold in the semis (sometimes between the #1 and #2) we should be thinking of the wrestlers hopes and dreams first. It's easy to say "you have to beat the best at some point to win states, so it doesn't matter when." However, if I am #2 in the state, I would want my chance at #1 on the biggest stage; the state finals. That's when the attendance and excitement is the greatest, and that's when I want everyone to see me take my shot at the title. Additionally, #1 should want his greatest threat to come on that same stage as well. Watch me dominate and tech fall my opponent to win a title, or watch a super exciting close match that comes down to the wire and I pull out the win. On Saturday night, on one mat in front of all eyes in the stands, I choose the latter every time. And I think most wrestlers would agree. While 3rd place is a great accomplishment, as a wrestler, having to watch the finals match that I "should have, could have, would have" been in is worse than losing in the semis. I would want to be center stage going for the title. We need to think more about what makes it worth while for the wrestlers rather than what the fans want to see. Should we be promoting wrestler numbers, or wrestling fan numbers? Unlike professional sports, without wrestlers there would be no fans.

[Campion]

All great topics and arguments for and against the pill.
One more bit of my own opinion I'd like to add concerns the "exciting matches." Often OUR opinions of exciting wrestling matches varies between semis and finals. On the opposite end of the spectrum as a wrestler, making the finals is and should be the ultimate goal. While it might be great for the fans to watch the excitement unfold in the semis (sometimes between the #1 and #2) we should be thinking of the wrestlers hopes and dreams first. It's easy to say "you have to beat the best at some point to win states, so it doesn't matter when." However, if I am #2 in the state, I would want my chance at #1 on the biggest stage; the state finals. That's when the attendance and excitement is the greatest, and that's when I want everyone to see me take my shot at the title. Additionally, #1 should want his greatest threat to come on that same stage as well. Watch me dominate and tech fall my opponent to win a title, or watch a super exciting close match that comes down to the wire and I pull out the win. On Saturday night, on one mat in front of all eyes in the stands, I choose the latter every time. And I think most wrestlers would agree. While 3rd place is a great accomplishment, as a wrestler, having to watch the finals match that I "should have, could have, would have" been in is worse than losing in the semis. I would want to be center stage going for the title. We need to think more about what makes it worth while for the wrestlers rather than what the fans want to see. Should we be promoting wrestler numbers, or wrestling fan numbers? Unlike professional sports, without wrestlers there would be no fans.

Regardless of seed, Every competitive wrestler I know that loses before the finals feel like they should be there instead of someone else, especially the #1’s that don’t make it. It doesn’t matter what round they lose to one of the finalists. And they should, as it is the right mindset for this sport! Don’t forget that Regionals are seeded and they are in integral part of the State Tournament.

[a_angeliii]

This might be an unpopular opinion but at least it will give you something to think about.

Just because you seed the regional champions, doesn’t mean you will get the best matches in the finals. Not all wrestlers are healthy going into regionals and do whatever they can to make sure they qualify no matter what the placement. The 11 days of rest could do injured or sick wrestlers a lot of good. Also, you have the human element into seeding, I know there is criteria, but some might concede a seed to avoid the second or third place wrestler from a different region.

No matter what we use for the state tournament, the pill, seeding, or form some kind of system that does it for you, people are going to complain. They will always find something to bitch about. No system will be perfect and no system will guarantee the best wrestlers are in the finals.

[Campion]

This might be an unpopular opinion but at least it will give you something to think about.

Just because you seed the regional champions, doesn’t mean you will get the best matches in the finals. Not all wrestlers are healthy going into regionals and do whatever they can to make sure they qualify no matter what the placement. The 11 days of rest could do injured or sick wrestlers a lot of good. Also, you have the human element into seeding, I know there is criteria, but some might concede a seed to avoid the second or third place wrestler from a different region.

No matter what we use for the state tournament, the pill, seeding, or form some kind of system that does it for you, people are going to complain. They will always find something to bitch about. No system will be perfect and no system will guarantee the best wrestlers are in the finals.

Well said! And who defines the “best wrestlers”? The wrestlers do! On the Mat!

[J.W.]

Since the results of the season do not matter at all, and all that matters is the winner, the season can be reduced to one month of practice. A regional tournament, the pill that negates any work done during the season and the state championship.

Season down from 4 months to 6 weeks, because that is ultimately what the pill and blind draws really mean if you think about it.

But we wrestle our state tournament in a high school gym with no podium again this year here in Kentucky, so we all have our own gripes and complaints.