Time for 3 classes

[shootnow]

To get more participation to fill the gaps, seems to me that starting at the middle school would help immensely for the areas that have none.

I know of kids who didn't start wrestling until 11 th grade but still placed at the state tourney in tough weight classes. Still those kids are at a fairly big disadvantage with those who started learning in middle school or earlier.

I agree with Jake Smiths above post basically one class helps sharpen competition and skills, but keeping just 2 classes and improving participation should be a first goal.

Id think when seniors get handily beaten by freshmen, it possibly could be decreasing some of the llate starters interest or desire to participate.

[Bearhugger]

Also, I can see AAA suffering greatly the next four years because the number of schools now in that class. With all of the rants about alignments and classes, I'm really surprised more people didn't fight to get the classifications more even.
5-8 wrestlers per class per regional is pretty low.

There will be byes in the state tournament in AAA next year while the corresponding AA/A weight class has good wrestlers staying home after the region.

[coach_stump]

My thoughts, if a one class division is good for all, why are there only 6-7 states that have such a format. I am not against a two-division format, as was mentioned earlier, divide the number of teams in half to create the two. If three classes are decided, eliminate the regions and take all wrestlers to the states tourney. Final statement, there are things that can be done to improve what is about to take place with the projection of the next 4 years.

[wvuptc]

My thoughts, if a one class division is good for all, why are there only 6-7 states that have such a format. I am not against a two-division format, as was mentioned earlier, divide the number of teams in half to create the two. If three classes are decided, eliminate the regions and take all wrestlers to the states tourney. Final statement, there are things that can be done to improve what is about to take place with the projection of the next 4 years.

Coach, what things can be done????

[coach_stump]

My preference is 3 classes, eliminate regionals which has every one stirred to a frenzy with the new alignments, and take your team to the state tourney. With all the schools dropping enrollment, there may be even more schools in the future that will be added to the list of smaller schools, thus making competition even stronger. Not everyone is in agreement with this format but try coaching from a small school with few numbers. I was very fortunate to have a good run versus larger schools but times are changing. You can't tell me that team accomplishments doesn't instill pride in any school system. Now, getting the WVSSAC to back this plan and the directors and principals to agree is a different story. Been working on that for years. My earlier plan was to allow the Single A highest place finisher at the state tourney to be awarded the Single A Championship but that didn't fly either.

[allheart]

Coach Stump you obviously have the best interest of the small schools in mind. Thank you!! Now what can schools do to make this happen?

[baxter841]

Agree - thank you again Coach Stump for you have done for wrestling. What worries me is that if the WVSSAC won't listen to Coach Stump, then we may not have much of a chance ( unless a high majority of the small schools work together) then the 3 classes could be a possibility. Coach Stump, what do you suggest we do first?

[gridironmike]

I heard the idea of awarding the highest finishing single A team a plaque during the 2013 tournament. Greenbrier West won AA/A that season and I figured the idea was forgotten. There are a lot of ideas on the table here. I'm not sure a diminished regional (in terms of the number in each bracket) in single A is the answer but I'd like to see something changed for those teams.

[Realwrestling]

Really people?
Maybe when I go wrestle in the Nationals in Vegas in April, hopefully I can get the US committee to let me wrestle only the people I want. C'mon! The cream always rises to the top and if you cannot field a full team then I suggest you to look at other ways to do so instead of sitting in the office glorying the past!
Get your kids arse off the couch from playing video games and take them to open tournaments.
Some of the statements I see on here is like the little league teams is where EVERYONE wins a trophy no matter how good or bad they do. What message are we sending to these kids when they enter the workforce?
Stop watering down the WV tournament anymore as it is!
I would want the challenges of taking a small school and beating the best larger schools!!
I think you coaches lack the skills set or just too lazy to motivate the kids in your school.
Someone at the head of WV wrestling organization needs to promote wrestling more, organize the All military wrestling programs to come and put on a wrestling show with the full student body in Attendance

I coach and been around for many many years can recognized a potential wrestler
I spend time with him and take him along wrestling trips, he is now ranked in the country.
Hell I am not special in anyway just love this sport to make it my life!
You can do the same, go the gym , go to the football coaches, my wrestlers are putting the football team in the CIF finals the last 6 years !!!

[coach_stump]

First off, want to wish you the best of luck in the nationals in Vegas Realwresting. Not sure you can get your wish of wrestling whom you chose to wrestle, but you are absolutely right with the cream rising to the top. There are some wrestlers from WV that will make some noise in the upcoming NCAA tourney next weekend, and hopefully as time goes, we can include even more. I know most WV wrestling coaches and they really do not have the time to sit in their office and dwell on the past for most have other coaching responsibilities. Many of these dedicated coaches are coaching multiple sports. That is life in the small school, along with most of our athletes who play various sports just so the schools can have that particular program. And how dare you say that the WV coaches lack the skill set, almost all the coaches that that I know work their ass off to promote the sport in their schools and work hard to get each of their kids better. I also agree with you on the fact that our state needs to do something, and that something is to take off the restrictions of allowing coaches to 'coach' during off season. That could help, just like some other states that allow coaches to do this. And finally, as far as watering down, I think this state needs to find a way to get more participants involved. If that has to be 'watering things down', so be it.
Now, for those that are still interested in what we can do (small school speaking), go through the chain of command and contact the coaches on the WV Wrestling Coaches Committee, flood them with calls. Two individuals that are on the committee that are 'small school' representatives are Jeremy Tincher, Coach at Greenbrier West and Jeff Givens, AD at Williamstown High school. Both are great men with wrestling as a priority. They can speak on our behalf at the annual meeting. I know for a fact that each of the two will make it known what needs to be said.

[Frank]

First off, want to wish you the best of luck in the nationals in Vegas Realwresting. Not sure you can get your wish of wrestling whom you chose to wrestle, but you are absolutely right with the cream rising to the top. There are some wrestlers from WV that will make some noise in the upcoming NCAA tourney next weekend, and hopefully as time goes, we can include even more. I know most WV wrestling coaches and they really do not have the time to sit in their office and dwell on the past for most have other coaching responsibilities. Many of these dedicated coaches are coaching multiple sports. That is life in the small school, along with most of our athletes who play various sports just so the schools can have that particular program. And how dare you say that the WV coaches lack the skill set, almost all the coaches that that I know work their ass off to promote the sport in their schools and work hard to get each of their kids better. I also agree with you on the fact that our state needs to do something, and that something is to take off the restrictions of allowing coaches to 'coach' during off season. That could help, just like some other states that allow coaches to do this. And finally, as far as watering down, I think this state needs to find a way to get more participants involved. If that has to be 'watering things down', so be it.
Now, for those that are still interested in what we can do (small school speaking), go through the chain of command and contact the coaches on the WV Wrestling Coaches Committee, flood them with calls. Two individuals that are on the committee that are 'small school' representatives are Jeremy Tincher, Coach at Greenbrier West and Jeff Givens, AD at Williamstown High school. Both are great men with wrestling as a priority. They can speak on our behalf at the annual meeting. I know for a fact that each of the two will make it known what needs to be said.

I like this guy!!!

[Rodregero]

Lord......u answered my prayers by bringing us the Bull......please come through for me one more time and make Wv high school wrestling one division/one tru champion. Amen.

[Lebowski]

PA has 2 classes with 12.8 Million residents.

How would making WV three classes, with 1.8 Million residents, improve wrestling here?

[J.W.]

Virginia has 6 classes, technically 7 with the Parochial States and they only have a population of 8.3 million. I thought I would post useless information about other states also.

[mscoach84]

Usually I am just a reader of this forum( I read a lot but mostly keep my thoughts to myself) and I try to follow it closely. People are debating back and forth on whether we should have a 3-class state tournament, 2-class state tournament, or a single class state tournament. Here are my 2 cents. Ultimately, it comes down to what our goals are as a state, as a team, as a coach, as an individual, and finally as a wrestling community. If our goal is to win as many state championships as possible and have as many state champions as possible then the 3-class system is most certainly the way to go. The 3-class system gives everyone a better chance at a trophy. However, If our goal is to be respected by the national wrestling community and to grow as a wrestling state and to improve the wresters that are here in the state then we should go to a single class tournament. I feel as though the 2-class system is an attempt to be the best at both worlds and isn’t really working out. In fact, the 2-class tournament is failing at both goals. In my opinion a single class system would be better for us as a wrestling community.

Alex Neal

[Gator]

Good points Alex. If you've ever watched the way they run the OVAC, it's hard to argue against a one class tournament. Just because a wrestler comes from a town with a small population, doesn't mean he can't beat someone from a larger city. If you want to argue that point, you don't have to look any further than Dylan Cottrell of Spencer and what he's accomplished.

If it ever does go to a one class winner individual state tournament, I hope they break down the points into a AAA,AA and A team winner also.

[dunbar76]

Does any other sport in WV have a "all in one class" state tournament at this time?

[Gator]

I believe swimming has one class. Possibly boxing, MMA cage fighting, curling and ping pong too.

[Frank Stein]

AAA State tournament will be watered down next year. The best 6 wrestlers likely won't even be attending in most weights. See Region IV. COMPETITION ELIMINATON.

[coach_williams]

Why stop at 3 just classes? If the goal is to ensure that everyone gets a chance at a trophy then let's make it 10 classes that way each class only has 9 or 10 teams per class and virtually guarantees that every school in the state has at least one state champ? I mean seriously, if we are so worried about making it easy for subpar wrestlers to compete at states then why not make it as easy as possible? By going to 10 classes every school can have multiple placers and probably a state champ. That way we can hand out trophies to pretty much everyone and ensure that everyone's feelings are protected

[Frank]

Here a lose comparison or at least something to think about.
Our middle schools only have one class, how would you all rate them national.
Where our high school has two, how would we rate them national.
Thoughts other than my speling and grammar

[aaacoach4]

First, I don't think anyone is endorsing a trophy for everyone who participates in wrestling, except for those that think their comments are the most humorous. If three classes are bad and in the end there can be only, etc., then why not for football, basketball, baseball, and track? Track is all individual except for relays and that has 3 classes. Athletes in track are being recruited from West Virginia so I don't buy the argument that having 1 class will make West Virginia wrestling more respectable. The only thing that will make West Virginia wrestling more respectable is for our wrestlers to place at National level tournaments or have success at the college level after they graduate from high school. It's nice to say that "Iron Sharpens Iron" but if there isn't any iron, then nothing happens. It is usually hard for a smaller school to get people out for a sport if they know they will have to face all bigger schools and programs. A good coach can work with athletes, but you can't coach empty seats or lockers. I would rather coach wrestlers at a weaker "A" school than not have a wrestling program because I want to make West Virginia wrestling more respectable.

[aacoach70]

Some of you are really convinced that combining into one single class is the way to go. Some of you are also shocked that people are suggesting to go ahead and break up the A/AA division into its own parts, despite the fact that the numbers support it now more than ever. I'm not strongly for or against combining, but I do have some questions just for the sake of discussion: Specifically, how has the current 2-division tournament hurt wrestling in WV? Try to give concrete examples and not based on perception. I could also ask, How would combining to one division improve wrestling in WV or increase interest/participation? Again, use concrete examples and not perception. How would a 1-division state tournament get more kids out for the sport and help keep small schools vibrant? As I said, I would not be opposed to combining, but I fail to see how it could make wrestling better. 2 schools of thought are going on- improving the quality of wrestling and increasing participation. I think it would be hard to do both at the same time. One point I would make is this: The better A/AA schools already wrestle the better AAA schools now, and have for quite some time. If we went to a combined single division tournament, we'd still have the same overall pool of wrestlers in the state to compete against. Simply by virtue of combining wouldn't make the quality of our wrestling go up. The perception of us by outsiders might be greater, or we could apply terms like "legitimizes" a title, but who really thinks that our kids' opportunities to wrestle at the next level lie primarily in how they finish at our state tournament? Regardless of A/AA/AAA, don't all kids have the same opportunity to wrestle the best competition in our state (schedule-permitting), go out of state, go to national tournaments, and go to camps to get exposure? Other states are not good comparisons. Sheer population accounts for A LOT. Only the top fraction of a percent of high school wrestlers get recruited or awarded scholarships to wrestle at the next level. We have far fewer wrestlers, but I wonder how we compare on a percentage basis to other states in that regard. If we ever do go to a combined state tournament, we should definitely recognize team overall and team champs in all 3 divisions.

[Rodregero]

I do not have any scientific/statistical reasoning for wanting one class.......just as a fan it would be cool. I tire of the end of the season debate of AA vs.AAA champions. We live in a small state. We need one champ. Besides.......Z.Moisey and J.Smith are for it.....why would I second guess those guys.

[docwhitlockdc]

Why not have 3 classes and then have a round robin tourney between the 3 champions the next weekend for the undisputed state championship. Then everybody is happy. This will give the top wrestlers something to strive for and a challenge. The 3 classes gives more opportunity for the kids to have a chance at placing in there class therefore increasing interest and participation in the sport.

[Gator]

I'd love to hear Sean Smith's thoughts on how and why the OVAC tournament is so large and successful. Sean heads up the OVAEC site and works tirelessly on the tournament results. It is a one class tournament with one individual champion and is broken down with team champions in 5A, 4A, 3A and 1&2A.

If you are out there and reading this Smitty, would love to hear your take on this discussion and why/how a one class tournament is run and is successful.

[coach_williams]

First, I don't think anyone is endorsing a trophy for everyone who participates in wrestling, except for those that think their comments are the most humorous. If three classes are bad and in the end there can be only, etc., then why not for football, basketball, baseball, and track? Track is all individual except for relays and that has 3 classes. Athletes in track are being recruited from West Virginia so I don't buy the argument that having 1 class will make West Virginia wrestling more respectable. The only thing that will make West Virginia wrestling more respectable is for our wrestlers to place at National level tournaments or have success at the college level after they graduate from high school. It's nice to say that "Iron Sharpens Iron" but if there isn't any iron, then nothing happens. It is usually hard for a smaller school to get people out for a sport if they know they will have to face all bigger schools and programs. A good coach can work with athletes, but you can't coach empty seats or lockers. I would rather coach wrestlers at a weaker "A" school than not have a wrestling program because I want to make West Virginia wrestling more respectable.

I was being facetious about the trophies. Sarcasm doesn't come thru too well online.

Regarding the part I bolded, I disagree. I will use Summers County High School as an example. At SCHS they have 519 students which lands them smack dab in the middle of AA/A size. They are surrounded by prominent wrestling programs like Indy, Greenbrier East, Greenbrier West and Woodrow Wilson. If they had a team they would have plenty of smaller schools to compete against locally with Pikeview (693 students), Liberty Raleigh (557), Fayetteville (326), Webster County (412), Wyoming East (542)...I could go on. So why doesn't Summers County have a wrestling team? They are surrounded by counties with teams and have numerous small schools within easy driving distance to wrestle against, so why no team? The answer is not that the students don't want to get beat up on by bigger schools, it is because the administration and athletic director have made no effort to have and/or have shown no support for a wrestling team. Something can not exist where no one wants it to. After working with kids in education and in wrestling it is my experience that the kids do not worry, nor do they care about school size. They will compete if given a chance.

[usna]

Having spent several years in WV wrestling and 38 plus in OH and MI wrestling I can say that having a single class in WV would help bring out the best of the best. It would certainly be tougher and require more to qualify for state and placing at state even more challenging. This would in turn make for better wrestlers in WV.

Individual team schedules can always be set accordingly to the teams overall performance level at the coaches discretion to help kids enjoy wrestling a little more regardless of the class. No different than what is done right now. Got a hammer team you search out hammer tournaments...If you don't you don't. It does however means that it makes the state tournament is more difficult to qualify in - not impossible - just more difficult to achieve.

Which is exactly how it is in most states. In my experience in the other states, most really good wrestlers never make it to the state tournament.
Wrestlers still have winning records - no different then they do now, as it is largely based on the difficulty of the teams season schedule. However when sectionals, districts and states roll around it gets real real fast... Just the way it is...
The balance can be set annually to insure not all the hammer schools are meeting in the same sectional/districts every year to avoid someone getting in easier than others but over time it always seems to balance out on it's own. Really good wrestlers find a way to make it. It's no different in Ohio where it always seems like the same schools win sectionals, districts and state no matter which path they take to get there... but that doesn't keep individuals from "no name" schools making it in.

School size versus program success..
The argument that smaller schools are less likely to win is not held up to who is winning now in WV.
The litmus test to school size versus program success would mean that the top 4 or so AAA teams should beat the top 4 AA teams and so forth.
That should also mean that the AAA individual weight champions should beat the AA champions, etc. But that doesn't seem to be the case in WV. Actually a lot of cases directly argue that point in WV.

The one commonality within the sport is the program tends to be more critical than the actual school size - doesn't matter which state you are in, good programs produce good wrestler teams year in and year out. They seem to have proven path to succeed. Good programs all seem to have a very similar recipe -

Successful programs tend to continue to be successful more because of the program than because of the pool of kids they draw from. Hammer wrestlers come and come but good programs are good year in and year out.

Having a program that has coaches working together across the school's platforms (football, cross country and wrestling) is pretty critical and for some reason trends seem to be going more towards single sport encouragement versus multi-sport.
This may be directly related to the other topic in regards to wrestling at the next level and how it is approached in WV. I could be wrong, but there just doesn't seem to be a lot of emphasis in WV that kids can wrestle at the "next level".
It is true there is generally less "money available" for wrestlers in college currently but there is some available. Coaches, athletes and parents interested need to actively search it out.
The more the kids search it out the more colleges will offer over time. Encouraging kids to make the grades and shoot for the next level can be a great motivator. I have witnessed first hand how just the potential of the "next level" can get a wrestler to turn the corner....

[jofus]

I believe swimming has one class. Possibly boxing, MMA cage fighting, curling and ping pong too.

Wait...we have Curling?????

For people arguing for one class...look at college. What if college only had one class, and schools like WLU, WJU, AB, and WVIT had to compete with wrestlers from WVU, etc., to go to the national tournament, rather than against schools similar to them? Would that help those schools build wrestling teams, I wonder. Just something to maybe think about

And before someone brings up that colleges are more different than high schools in regards to resources, available money, etc., you can also argue that high schools are too. Shady has a small mat room that the school forces them to convert to a weight room for the football team 8 months out of the year, while Greenbrier East has a dedicated building with 4 full mats in it year round, for just a couple examples of the differences among high schools.

[usna]

That is a good point - look at it from their point of view.

All those colleges listed do recruit wrestlers from various states and they all take in consideration strength of wrestling within that state.
When colleges from any division are recruiting they obviously want to get the best wrestlers for their program, specially if they are handing out scholarships. In order to be competitive at the next level you have to start at the HS level. Making it easier for one HS program to "make it to state" isn't actually helping them in the big picture as they will get passed over at the next level.
On the flip side it isn't really fair to penalize a hammer wrestler just because he is in a weak "class" in the state. Let them at least have the opportunity to win it all outright.

Plenty of success stories come from out of nowhere with no real reason for the success other than the desire to succeed. For me at least it's just easier to justify having it be extremely tough to qualify for state versus trying to explain why a state champion doesn't get a single offer at the next level.

Understand the hurdles many HS programs have but just like having the best facility doesn't guarantee success not having the best of everything doesn't guarantee failure either. The program is typically more about the people and the will to succeed.