All class, why not

[greencrush]

Too easy, and too effective. I really don't get how anyone could rebel against the concept. Going to all class would make a more competitive, prestigious tournament that would draw D1 scouts. Too many great wrestlers from WV never get a shot because no D1 coaches or scouts know their name.
When you look at the guys from WV who are having great success at the D1 level (Haught, Smith, Cottrell), you find that they only drew attention because they had the ability to travel to national tournaments. This would give the families who don't have that financial luxury a chance to see their kids off on D1 wrestling scholarships.
I would imagine, when presented in that manner, the idea would appeal to many parents and coaches. Who's going to complain that their team didn't perform quite as well when they are sending kids who have poured their heart and soul into the sport on to the next level.
Who is going to complain when they are sending kids whose parents and coaches have poured their time, effort, and money into, on to the next level.
This should be the goal, not an afterthought to a petty team title that benefits no one in the long run.

I'll tell you what else, it's a mighty fine recruitment tool when you are able to cite multiple athletes from the state who are competing for and getting an education at prestigious D1 schools due to wrestling.
In my humble opinion, this is the first step to reviving and advancing WV wrestling.

[rodrego]

GreenCrush........stop it....u make to much sense.

[mscoach64]

wonder if it would act in reverse of the intended thought? If a kid had a goal to finish in the top 6 of his/her weight class (or even strives to only make the tournament as a goal) now see virtually no hope in that with an all class tourney. Then i wonder if he/she would see the need to continue to wrestle? Is that possible? Just a thought.

[aaacoach90]

Less $$$

[rodrego]

wonder if it would act in reverse of the intended thought? If a kid had a goal to finish in the top 6 of his/her weight class (or even strives to only make the tournament as a goal) now see virtually no hope in that with an all class tourney. Then i wonder if he/she would see the need to continue to wrestle? Is that possible? Just a thought.

Your thinking like an adult. I don't think kids will see it that way. They adapt to their environment. I have a friend that wrestled in NY in the 80's. Back then they were one class. He told me with a grin one time...."I made the state tournament my senior year, it is a tough tournament."

[Rage_Bear]

Too easy, and too effective. I really don't get how anyone could rebel against the concept. Going to all class would make a more competitive, prestigious tournament that would draw D1 scouts. Too many great wrestlers from WV never get a shot because no D1 coaches or scouts know their name.
When you look at the guys from WV who are having great success at the D1 level (Haught, Smith, Cottrell), you find that they only drew attention because they had the ability to travel to national tournaments. This would give the families who don't have that financial luxury a chance to see their kids off on D1 wrestling scholarships.
I would imagine, when presented in that manner, the idea would appeal to many parents and coaches. Who's going to complain that their team didn't perform quite as well when they are sending kids who have poured their heart and soul into the sport on to the next level.
Who is going to complain when they are sending kids whose parents and coaches have poured their time, effort, and money into, on to the next level.
This should be the goal, not an afterthought to a petty team title that benefits no one in the long run.

I'll tell you what else, it's a mighty fine recruitment tool when you are able to cite multiple athletes from the state who are competing for and getting an education at prestigious D1 schools due to wrestling.
In my humble opinion, this is the first step to reviving and advancing WV wrestling.

You state that having just one class would draw D1 scouts, but that can actually work in the opposite. If the scouts know they aren't going to get to see as many kids, they are less likely to show up. The state of NY had this problem forever. They had one champion and no divisional split for a very long time until 2004. College coaches didn't even bother showing up because the kids that were represented were already spoken for in such a small tournament (those there being the best of the best and already committed). What about the kids that have potential but their limited state tournament doesn't include them?

The goal shouldn't be just D1. It should be college in general. There are far more D2 programs locally than D1 and D3 has far more opportunities than both. The more wrestlers you have, the more opportunities to find the "diamond in the rough" athlete that many of the smaller programs are looking for. That should be the goal... an education and an opportunity to succeed at all levels, not just D1. I'd argue our current system is the best we can manage until we get realignment of the regions/classifications.

[rodrego]

Rage bear. Good points. We are not even close to the population of NY or Cali. So one class makes more sense for us. I don't care about D1 recruiting.....that happens at national events. I just think it would make for a better/more interesting state tournament.

[Sally]

Greencrush
We disagree on regional realignment (another thread ) but I agree with an all classes state tournament.
The A, AA, and AAA team titles can still be awarded and fans will see some excellent matches.

[mike.carman]

I posted this in another thread.

We can still keep our schools' classifications as A/AA/AAA but have 1 tournament. If there were only 4 regions and we put all the schools together, there would be 24 teams in each region.
Now you have a 32 man bracket for the regional tournament and a means to allow JV wrestlers to qualify and go to the state tournament. Put your 24 varsity wrestlers in the bracket at the regional tournament if able and fill the empty spots with your better JV wrestlers. That allows for a minimum of 8 JV wrestlers in the bracket. Wrestle it over 2 days to accommodate the bean counters that feel we need to have 2 separate regional tournaments. Take the top 8 kids to the state tournament. Now instead of 2 16 man brackets you have 1 32 man bracket. More wrestling and more competitive. Each team will earn points and you can still have class based team champions.

Problems solved:
No dispute as to which class is tougher.
More kids participating in the state tournament.
JV wrestlers have a chance to go to states and place.
Each class of school gets its own team championship.
No reason for anyone to feel excluded.
Allowing 8 to attend from each region makes it appear more attainable to student athletes, but in reality, we are still sending the same number of kids to the state tournament. Fewer or no byes at regional and state tournaments.
No one will bye out to the quarter finals in either tournament.

Where is the down side?

[Sally]

We can still keep our schools' classifications as A/AA/AAA but have 1 tournament. If there were only 4 regions and we put all the schools together, there would be 24 teams in each region.
Now you have a 32 man bracket for the regional tournament and a means to allow JV wrestlers to qualify and go to the state tournament. Put your 24 varsity wrestlers in the bracket at the regional tournament if able and fill the empty spots with your better JV wrestlers. That allows for a minimum of 8 JV wrestlers in the bracket. Wrestle it over 2 days to accommodate the bean counters that feel we need to have 2 separate regional tournaments. Take the top 8 kids to the state tournament. Now instead of 2 16 man brackets you have 1 32 man bracket. More wrestling and more competitive. Each team will earn points and you can still have class based team champions.

Problems solved:
No dispute as to which class is tougher.
More kids participating in the state tournament.
JV wrestlers have a chance to go to states and place.
Each class of school gets its own team championship.
No reason for anyone to feel excluded.
Allowing 8 to attend from each region makes it appear more attainable to student athletes, but in reality, we are still sending the same number of kids to the state tournament. Fewer or no byes at regional and state tournaments.
No one will bye out to the quarter finals in either tournament.

Where is the down side?

Well done Mr. Carman. If WSAZ can wrestle however many thousand matches in a day and a half, why not combine everyone and expand the bracket? I like it.

[greencrush]

I don't get how it would have the opposite effect. 32 wrestlers is 32 wrestlers. The same number of wrestlers qualify, we just get tougher finals, semis, quarters, and placement matches. I should also clarify that I would advocate placing the top 8 in an all class, 32 man bracket.
I also don't get how it would be less money. 32 wrestlers in one bracket brings the same amount of parents/family/friends/etc. as 16 wrestlers in 2 brackets.
They even get eliminated at the same pace. In a 32 man bracket, after the 1st round of consi's, you have 16 left,

In a 16 man bracket, after the first round of consis, you have 8 left. 8+8=16.

[greencrush]

I should have clarified that I was advocating for a 32 man bracket, and 8 placewinners from the beginning. I guess it seemed obvious to me , but it was not so to others.

[Rage_Bear]

I posted this in another thread.

We can still keep our schools' classifications as A/AA/AAA but have 1 tournament. If there were only 4 regions and we put all the schools together, there would be 24 teams in each region.
Now you have a 32 man bracket for the regional tournament and a means to allow JV wrestlers to qualify and go to the state tournament. Put your 24 varsity wrestlers in the bracket at the regional tournament if able and fill the empty spots with your better JV wrestlers. That allows for a minimum of 8 JV wrestlers in the bracket. Wrestle it over 2 days to accommodate the bean counters that feel we need to have 2 separate regional tournaments. Take the top 8 kids to the state tournament. Now instead of 2 16 man brackets you have 1 32 man bracket. More wrestling and more competitive. Each team will earn points and you can still have class based team champions.

Problems solved:
No dispute as to which class is tougher.
More kids participating in the state tournament.
JV wrestlers have a chance to go to states and place.
Each class of school gets its own team championship.
No reason for anyone to feel excluded.
Allowing 8 to attend from each region makes it appear more attainable to student athletes, but in reality, we are still sending the same number of kids to the state tournament. Fewer or no byes at regional and state tournaments.
No one will bye out to the quarter finals in either tournament.

Where is the down side?

This. This is how it should be if you're going to go to an all-class state tournament. I'd like to see something like this implemented. One thing I would add would be seeding. The pill is fallible, seeding is minimally so.

[greencrush]

It wouldn't even be more matches. Same number of wrestlers, same number of matches, just more competitive, and a very meaningful podium.

[Rage_Bear]

I should have clarified that I was advocating for a 32 man bracket, and 8 placewinners from the beginning. I guess it seemed obvious to me , but it was not so to others.

In my mind's eye, I didn't see that you meant it. That would be far better than just a 16 man bracket, or even smaller if it's like how it was in NY pre-2004. God, that was miserable.

[greencrush]

I posted this in another thread.

We can still keep our schools' classifications as A/AA/AAA but have 1 tournament. If there were only 4 regions and we put all the schools together, there would be 24 teams in each region.
Now you have a 32 man bracket for the regional tournament and a means to allow JV wrestlers to qualify and go to the state tournament. Put your 24 varsity wrestlers in the bracket at the regional tournament if able and fill the empty spots with your better JV wrestlers. That allows for a minimum of 8 JV wrestlers in the bracket. Wrestle it over 2 days to accommodate the bean counters that feel we need to have 2 separate regional tournaments. Take the top 8 kids to the state tournament. Now instead of 2 16 man brackets you have 1 32 man bracket. More wrestling and more competitive. Each team will earn points and you can still have class based team champions.

Problems solved:
No dispute as to which class is tougher.
More kids participating in the state tournament.
JV wrestlers have a chance to go to states and place.
Each class of school gets its own team championship.
No reason for anyone to feel excluded.
Allowing 8 to attend from each region makes it appear more attainable to student athletes, but in reality, we are still sending the same number of kids to the state tournament. Fewer or no byes at regional and state tournaments.
No one will bye out to the quarter finals in either tournament.

Where is the down side?

This. This is how it should be if you're going to go to an all-class state tournament. I'd like to see something like this implemented. One thing I would add would be seeding. The pill is fallible, seeding is minimally so.

I posted a detailed example of why seeding/rankings are not viable in another thread that is very active right now.

Yeah, sometimes it's hard to get the whole point across in a lengthy forum post, especially one that is already getting long winded.

[Rage_Bear]

Rage bear. Good points. We are not even close to the population of NY or Cali. So one class makes more sense for us. I don't care about D1 recruiting.....that happens at national events. I just think it would make for a better/more interesting state tournament.

In my initial posting, I was referencing a smaller bracket (16 or less) which would make my argument stronger in regards to population. Also, I don't care either about just D1 recruiting, but I was debating merits from the initial post of this thread.

[admin]

I should stay out of this but...

24 teams per region, 32 man bracket
Put your 24 varsity wrestlers in the bracket at the regional tournament if able and fill the empty spots with your better JV wrestlers. That allows for a minimum of 8 JV wrestlers in the bracket.

Q: How does one determine who the better JV wrestlers are? There would be 8 spots on the bracket for JV wrestlers from 24 teams. And, does each team get to enter only one JV wrestler, or can there be multiple JV wrestlers from a given team at a given weight?

[aaacoach33]

2 sectionals per region wrestled the week before. Top 4 from each section go to regionals. The WVSSAC can make their money with this extra week

4 regional tournaments with top 4 from each region making it to states

[mike.carman]

I should stay out of this but...

24 teams per region, 32 man bracket
Put your 24 varsity wrestlers in the bracket at the regional tournament if able and fill the empty spots with your better JV wrestlers. That allows for a minimum of 8 JV wrestlers in the bracket.

Q: How does one determine who the better JV wrestlers are? There would be 8 spots on the bracket for JV wrestlers from 24 teams. And, does each team get to enter only one JV wrestler, or can there be multiple JV wrestlers from a given team at a given weight?

That would have to be left up to your coaches in your region to battle that out. It's not perfect and I am not a big advocate for allowing JV wrestlers compete in the regional tournament, but it seems to be a big point of contention with some folks so I thought I would throw that into the plan. I can't think of everything.

[mike.carman]

2 sectionals per region wrestled the week before. Top 4 from each section go to regionals. The WVSSAC can make their money with this extra week

4 regional tournaments with top 4 from each region making it to states

I saw this in another thread. It's another good idea.

[coach999]

Wrestling is a sport with a learning curve. Yes an all division tourney would be an exciting one, at least for awhile, but in long term, I think it hurts WV. Mainly because, kids won't make it through the learning curve before they quit. It will give fans more good wrestlers in same class, but if a HS kid that's wrestled for a few years only begins Wrestling in 9th grade against all division competition, then he will most likely have no chance at making state tourney. With less kids making the state tourney, means more kids go home losing. Regaurdless of the quality of competition, more wrestlers fighting for same 4 spots at regions, means more wrestlers losing, and this will discourage the inexperienced wrestlers from Wrestling. When a wrestlers loses all the time, it doesn't take long for the kid to quit. Problem is, in a couple years the same kid could really develop into a great wrestler, but I'm afraid to many won't stay with it long enough to find out. A all division format will enable this to happen. Kids will get discouraged from losing or think they have no shot at making states, therefore they will not wrestle and do something else. We even see this today, with teams that have two good wrestlers but one can't beat the other on same team so they don't wrestle. Kids don't think far enough ahead to realize what they can be. They see the now! If an all division wrestling state tourney started today, The now would mean, 4 kids from each class of each region don't even make the states. Therefore many will get discouraged and either quit or finish out year without giving any effort of getting better because the now for them would mean it's pointless.

What we have now is working. I know if my son were at Independence, then he would really develop every year. Many of their kids have proved to develop in a short period of time, and compete on a high level in the state tourney. is it possible for Indepence kids to do as well as they are in an all divison state tourney, yes, and knowing them, they could probably make that happen, but the odds are not as good in an all divison tourney. Point is, the young or inexperienced kids sees independence wrestlers have this success in a short period of time, and then they have hope and wanna wrestle because they are optimistic about having same success and winning. All divison could limit the success for even Independence but gaurenteed success will dramatically be limited for other programs. Therefore the same young and inexperienced kids will not wrestle. The current format gives them best chance of seeing possibilities of what could be!

I think the focus should be more toward the topic I saw about more dual competitions. Wrestling takes a lot of time away from home, which makes it less likely for others to come and watch friends or family members. If they came out more, then they would be more likely to involve their kids or family members in the sport. Duals develop rivalrys, and that draws crowds. Crowds mean more people will have their kids present. Which will make them interested in the sport.

Also, coaches need to get more involved with Peewee and middle school programs. Getting everyone involved like Independence does. Just don't sit back and hope the programs that feed the high school will send you quality wrestlers. If so, HS's inherit wrestlers with bad habits or kids that are not close to being fundamentally sound. That's my 2 cents.

[greencrush]

Once again, the same number of wrestlers would make the state tourney.
32 per weight
8 placers
8 regions sending 4 wrestlers
Realign the regions accordingly, mixing A, AA, and AAA throughout.

That's how I envision it.

[mike.carman]

Wrestling is a sport with a learning curve. Yes an all division tourney would be an exciting one, at least for awhile, but in long term, I think it hurts WV. Mainly because, kids won't make it through the learning curve before they quit. It will give fans more good wrestlers in same class, but if a HS kid that's wrestled for a few years only begins Wrestling in 9th grade against all division competition, then he will most likely have no chance at making state tourney. With less kids making the state tourney, means more kids go home losing. Regaurdless of the quality of competition, more wrestlers fighting for same 4 spots at regions, means more wrestlers losing, and this will discourage the inexperienced wrestlers from Wrestling. When a wrestlers loses all the time, it doesn't take long for the kid to quit. Problem is, in a couple years the same kid could really develop into a great wrestler, but I'm afraid to many won't stay with it long enough to find out. A all division format will enable this to happen. Kids will get discouraged from losing or think they have no shot at making states, therefore they will not wrestle and do something else. We even see this today, with teams that have two good wrestlers but one can't beat the other on same team so they don't wrestle. Kids don't think far enough ahead to realize what they can be. They see the now! If an all division wrestling state tourney started today, The now would mean, 4 kids from each class of each region don't even make the states. Therefore many will get discouraged and either quit or finish out year without giving any effort of getting better because the now for them would mean it's pointless.

What we have now is working. I know if my son were at Independence, then he would really develop every year. Many of their kids have proved to develop in a short period of time, and compete on a high level in the state tourney. is it possible for Indepence kids to do as well as they are in an all divison state tourney, yes, and knowing them, they could probably make that happen, but the odds are not as good in an all divison tourney. Point is, the young or inexperienced kids sees independence wrestlers have this success in a short period of time, and then they have hope and wanna wrestle because they are optimistic about having same success and winning. All divison could limit the success for even Independence but gaurenteed success will dramatically be limited for other programs. Therefore the same young and inexperienced kids will not wrestle. The current format gives them best chance of seeing possibilities of what could be!

I think the focus should be more toward the topic I saw about more dual competitions. Wrestling takes a lot of time away from home, which makes it less likely for others to come and watch friends or family members. If they came out more, then they would be more likely to involve their kids or family members in the sport. Duals develop rivalrys, and that draws crowds. Crowds mean more people will have their kids present. Which will make them interested in the sport.

Also, coaches need to get more involved with Peewee and middle school programs. Getting everyone involved like Independence does. Just don't sit back and hope the programs that feed the high school will send you quality wrestlers. If so, HS's inherit wrestlers with bad habits or kids that are not close to being fundamentally sound. That's my 2 cents.

Respectfully:

First, my idea allows for 8 out of each region so they would not be competing for the same 4 spots. Second, the brackets get expanded and allow for more wrestling. Third, I feel numbers would climb because more kids will feel like they can have an opportunity to be competitive. Fourth, for our more competitive kids they will see other more competitive kids and with greater competition, you can draw in more college coaches to see them compete. I'm all for patting kids on the head and telling them they did a good job, but lets face it, we have kids that want to get to the next level. Let's not water down the competition so someone who does not have the heart to go through the tough years doesn't quit. We need to allow the kids that can excel and families that don't have the resources to get those kids out to national competitions a means to do so. Too much emphasis has been put on leveling the playing field when the playing field is never level. I do agree with you about dual meets and having more local dual meets and getting fans involved and promoting the sport.

As far as coaches getting involved with peewee and middle school programs, technically they are not really allowed. Again, WVSSAC leveling the playing field. I agree that would really help programs develop better programs.

No matter what opinions we have hear on the forum, until the WVSSAC(the principals) decides to listen to it's
parents and coaches and not hold back our kids, things won't change.

I like you thoughts though.

[mike.carman]

Once again, the same number of wrestlers would make the state tourney.
32 per weight
8 placers
8 regions sending 4 wrestlers
Realign the regions accordingly, mixing A, AA, and AAA throughout.

That's how I envision it.

Another good idea.

[guard0544]

I have not researched to confirm this myself.

However, someone familiar with both Kentucky and North Carolina wrestling recently told me that years ago Kentucky and North Carolina had very similar numbers in regards to total wrestlers per state, and the number of high schools that had wrestling programs. Then North Carolina switched from being all in one division, into having several different divisions for their wrestlers. Over the years this spurred numerous high schools to start up wrestling programs, and the growth of wrestling in North Carolina began to dramatically out pace the growth in Kentucky who had maintained a single division for wrestling.

I took the guy at his word based on knowing his familiarity with both states.Perhaps it would be something difficult to results online. I mention it only to say its possible having the most competitive bracket by combining all divisions into one, isnt the best option to grow the sport.

[mike.carman]

I have not researched to confirm this myself.

However, someone familiar with both Kentucky and North Carolina wrestling recently told me that years ago Kentucky and North Carolina had very similar numbers in regards to total wrestlers per state, and the number of high schools that had wrestling programs. Then North Carolina switched from being all in one division, into having several different divisions for their wrestlers. Over the years this spurred numerous high schools to start up wrestling programs, and the growth of wrestling in North Carolina began to dramatically out pace the growth in Kentucky who had maintained a single division for wrestling.

I took the guy at his word based on knowing his familiarity with both states.Perhaps it would be something difficult to results online. I mention it only to say its possible having the most competitive bracket by combining all divisions into one, isnt the best option to grow the sport.

This is interesting information. What I am looking at is the dwindling numbers in the large school division. Right now, we only have 3 regions with 7 schools and 1 region with 8 schools but in A/AA we have 3 regions with 17 schools and 1 region with 16 schools. Not all of which have wrestling teams to begin with and a few have dropped their wrestling programs in the recent past and that is having 2 different classes. It's worth a look but I think it might be comparing apples and oranges as the population in the state keeps going down. Jobs are harder and harder to come by and our youth leave out of necessity which leaves smaller and smaller student populations. I don't think Kentucky and North Carolina have the same problems with population we have. North Carolina's population is growing at about 6.43% and Kentucky's is growing at about 2.25% while West Virginia's is shrinking at about 1.18%. Not to mention NC and KY have significantly larger populations that WV to begin with.

[P.H.D.]

All class individual champion, 3 class team champion, lets do it now!!! What's the next step?

[Gator]

After having attended the OVAC Tournament for several years, I have mentioned a one class state tournament like it many times, with 3 teams titles. Nothing ever gets done and I doubt that it will. I will probably hear about revenue sharing however.

[Bearhugger]

I am too tired to read all of these ideas.....................but at a glance, I like everything I see. I see ideas and solutions for a current system that is BROKE!!!!!!!!!!